Bob... DUDE!... Your outrage sounds so ignorant... DOGMATIC religions did not begin with Rick Warren... Christians as a general rules believe those who are not christians will go to hell... most of our elected members hold Warren beliefs... they are just politician who won't say it out loud...

Or you could pray that his 'eyes' might be opened so that he can see the lack of love his statements convey - him being a professed messenger of the God of love - and the way this alienates the very sinners he would wish to attract.

I say be disagreeable and condemn him to hell, yanno just to be sure.

Absolutely, Maurice. I'm having a hard time understanding why there is ANY upset over a minister insisting that anyone who doesn't believe in his religion is going to hell. At least as far as evangelical Christianity is concerned (including all the Pentecostal faiths, which includes Rick Warren's) that's just what they believe, and they believe it without malice toward anyone.

BTW, Mark Ambinder offers this: The Left Adapts To Power; Or, Overcoming Learned Pessimism.

QT

Absolutely, Maurice. I'm having a hard time understanding why there is ANY upset over a minister insisting that anyone who doesn't believe in his religion is going to hell. At least as far as evangelical Christianity is concerned (including all the Pentecostal faiths, which includes Rick Warren's) that's just what they believe, and they believe it without malice toward anyone.

BTW, Mark Ambinder offers this: The Left Adapts To Power; Or, Overcoming Learned Pessimism.

QT

I think you should write him a thank you letter, what for being so considerate as to include you amongst the people who are damned to hell.

I like to think that Warren is intelligent enough to know that the Romans (as well as the Jews) did not record the darkness, earthquakes and saints returning to life and walking back into town following the crucifixion due to an inexplicable oversight. There was no documentation because it simply did not occur. And just as it did not occur, Rick Warren does not get his medical treatment from another believer in Christ, notwithstanding that he should be healed if his faith and the foundations of his religion are true.

Now you're just being a shrieking nincompoop.

>>Your outrage sounds so ignorant... DOGMATIC religions did not begin with Rick Warren...

I'm being sarcastic. I know what dogmatic beliefs are, and I understand who holds them. The crazy thing about this particular man is that he's been invited to an event in the spirit of inclusion and compromise, yet his God-like certainty about non-Christians going to hell is totally exclusive and utterly lacking in compromise. The very nature of his religious faith precludes compromise on these issues -- abortion, gay rights, who's condemned to an eternity of torture or not.

>>Now you're just being a shrieking nincompoop.

That's disagreeable! You should've just condemned me to hell instead.

This is what helps me ignore the clusterfuck of insanity known as religion: We all go to the same place when we die, AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT IT IS.

Not one fucking person. And anyone who tells you otherwise wants you to get "saved" to validate their idiocy. And, hey, if you don't mind, your wallet too.

In the meantime, anyone who disagrees me is taking a ride down the river Styx. Or listening to Styx. Whichever one you equate with hell.

I'm thinking that if the religious institutions want to dictate what rights are extended to what groups of people, we need to repeal the 1st Amendment and they should pay taxes.
And that it's a good thing Russ Feingold wasn't Obama's running mate.

@QT

I think I've given the president-elect the benefit of the doubt on almost everything, save for this one issue. I'm decidedly not one of the liberals who has 'kneejerked' against the president-elect on some of his more controversial decisions.

As for the Ambinder piece, I thought this line...

choice of an anti-gay pastor to speak briefly for one morning

...was ridiculously simplistic. It's not just *any* morning or just any event. It's the inaugural dais one of the most historic days in American history. And this isn't just any anti-gay evangelical preacher. This is an anti-gay evangelical preacher who has said hateful, degrading things about millions of people, the least of which being gays.

Incidentally, no-one has explained to me the political upside of this.

At least as far as evangelical Christianity is concerned (including all the Pentecostal faiths, which includes Rick Warren's) that's just what they believe, and they believe it without malice toward anyone.

This is why I say that this is a group that neccessarily DOES have to be marginalized. They proudly believe crazy, destructive shit.

I submit, however, that the only thing SCARIER than believing those not of your tribe are deserving of eternal suffering while feeling malice about it is feeling that those not of your tribe are deserving of eternal suffering while not feeling malice about it.

That's some cold shit. "Now, prepare to suffer, motherfucker!" is a sentiment that, while cruel, is at least relatable.

"So sorry, but here comes your eternal suffering, hon" is crazy.

It is like how a backwoods Louisiana good ole boy uses the word "nigger," without anger or a pulse-rate increase at the utterance; it is just like saying "water" or "toast."

That's what makes it more contemptible, is the LACK of malice about such a malicious and odious thought.

But ALSO, I would further submit, there IS a malice in people like Warren but the dodge is excusing it by saying, "Geez, I'm sorry, but these aren't MY rules, they're GOD'S rules.... (faggot)."

The "faggot" is silent,but implied.

It is a wholly passive-aggressive malice, because the condemnation is delivered with a patina of "concern," but being blog-folk, we all know the nature of concern-trolling.

What scares me more are the genuinely NICE people who buy into this thought-virus and truly, honestly believe that it is goodness.

Genuine, well-meaning people who go about their day really believing that most of the people they see in their day, people they know, love, care about, or just like or smile at, are slated for not just suffering, but ETERNAL suffering, by way of a God of infinite mercy and goodness (!).

The amount of cognitive dissonance and compartmentalization has got to be pathological.

People like Warren, I get. It is a racket and a power-trip. I SEE where it benefits him. He's a pudgy nebbish who, by this invisible product, is crazy-powerful and important.

The rubes who BUY this poison, and who are, at base level, "good" people, but who can swallow the inherent contradiction and do so willingly, those people scare the piss out of me.

Bob, I don't know if there is a political upside to this except for the fact that people have very short memories and a month after the inauguration, this will all be forgotten.

What I personally find upsetting is that there is an invocation and benediction in the first place in a government that needs more separation of church and state, instead of the intertwining of them with events and scenarios like this one. That the majority of the voting bloc judges the religion of someone as a qualification to hold office is what is disturbing to me.

First, I need to apologize, Bob. I'm the one who kneejerked agreement with Maurice - skipping entirely over his opening rudeness. I was agreeing with the non-rude part, just for the record.

Second, I've already stated at least two potential upsides. It remains to be seen, however, if those upsides actually pan out. Seems unlikely at this point, but that could just be me growing cynical and depressed.

Third, if what you quoted was the central piece of what Ambinder said, I'd agree... but I found this to be more central:

... the transition team obviously wanted two contrasting religious voices for the invocation and the benediction.

Wherein lies the potential upside.

Anyway, again sorry for sloppy and offensive wording. I still say you're being unfair to Rev. Warren to make jokes about him stating what his dogma says. There is certainly a difference between (say) Pastor Hagee hypothesizing that the Holocaust was good for Jews and Rev. Warren saying that Jews (and any one else not born again) are going to hell. The one hatefully singles out Jews, one states dogma, and at that, only when put on the spot.

This business of going into people's churches and highlighting segments of their sermons for everyone to make fun of is a miserable thing to do. People's religions typically make sense to those who practice them, and not much at all to anyone else, especially taken out of context. Know who knew this? Mike Huckabee, who wouldn't attack Rev. Wright. I do realize for the non-religious among us, it could sound a lot like "they're all crazy." But of course, that's a very onesided pov.

I thought I was going to bed. I think I should follow through on that.

Oh yeah. I know you're not one of the kneejerking liberals. That's why yours is one of the few blogs I still frequent. :) I appreciate your genuine good sense, even if I don't agree with you on this one.

QT

Oh fudge. I do have to address just this one thing though, in the form of a very sincere question: there seems to be a consensus forming that suggests that anyone who has evangelical beliefs, on account of their evangelical beliefs, should be permanently excluded, because their beliefs don't allow for compromise.

Here's my question. Why? Why does the fact that people hold beliefs that are not compromiseable mean that they ought not be invited to the table? Does the fact that we can't agree on the subject of abortion or gay marriage mean that we can't agree on other stuff - like poverty? Does Rick Warren's belief that everyone who doesn't believe as he does is going to hell affect ANYONE's life here on earth? And, if you don't believe that (and especially, if you don't believe in a heaven or hell) how does Rick Warren's belief affect you? Outside of his determination to oppose gay marriage and abortion (things on which he may likely be overruled, and in the case of gay marriage, likely irrevocably, especially if it goes to court), what does his belief about your afterlife have to do with... anything?

K. I guess that was more than one question. I'm off to bed. Night, and see everyone tomorrow, I hope!

QT

"This business of going into people's churches and highlighting segments of their sermons for everyone to make fun of is a miserable thing to do."

Man, QT nailed this..

We could do this with Catholics easily. Muslims are a cinch to make fun of. Hindus - a COW, really? The Buddhists - looney tunes. Marxists, too. Ayn Rand fans. Rush fans. The Beatles. And don't even get me STARTED on the Bahá'í Faith!!!

(I actually know nothing about Bahá'í - that was just a shoutout to the Queen!)

All those religions suck. And every philosophy, too.

The current gift of Rick Warren is that it's ripping the lid off of the beliefs of mainstream America and allowing Democrats a chance to actually learn to practice understanding. Three weeks to go!

"The current gift of Rick Warren is that it's ripping the lid off of the beliefs of mainstream America and allowing Democrats a chance to actually learn to practice understanding."

yeah Lee because its a well known fact that democrats as a whole, are known for NOT practicing understanding....wtf.. Where do you live backwards bizarro world?

I wonder, will Rick Warren be wearing his "god hates fags" t-shirt at this invocation?

Oops i was being disagreeable, silly me.... i supposed i will be condemned to hell next.

The current gift of Rick Warren is that it's ripping the lid off of the beliefs of mainstream America and allowing Democrats a chance to actually learn to practice understanding. Three weeks to go!

I think more that it is showing that when actually EXAMINED, and not just paid a kind of condescending lip service to, that these "mainstream" beliefs are actually fringe lunacy and worthy of incredulity.

Look at the absolute (well earned) disgust on Anne Curry's face, coming to the logical conclusions of the givens that this vile toad is stating as if it was revealed wisdom.

It is like when Rush Limbaugh got a TV show. As a "popular" radio sensation, he got press and buzz, but only a fringe-amount of people ACTUALLY knew, specifically, what he said.

When he got on TV, it was a failure, because ACTUAL "mainstream" people were repulsed.

Then enough time passed where he went back to that radio "fame/anonymity", where many people know OF you, but not so many actually KNOW you, and he was given that football shot.

Within, what? Weeks, the dude said something vile enough on its face that he had to go away.

Same with Savage/Weiner.

Same with Sarah Palin, honestly.

Same with THIS guy. Given sunlight and actual exposure and direct inspection of his words, and not just the general acceptance of his label as "a moderate evangelist," we see that he's really, really creepy, in a way that is irreconcilable with a sense of consistent morality. (See Bob's comments re: Santorum.)

The more people see precisely WHAT evangelicals actually believe (and precisely how creepy their representatives are, past the initial smile), the more fringe it becomes.

By the way, since when is Young-Earth Creationism, gays-as-pedophiles, Jews-in-Hell "mainstream America?"

Didn't "mainstream" america just prove itself to be NOT "center-right?"

Which is why those of us upset at this Warren appeasement are upset?

Yea, Bob, talk to your friend Lee. This is one I will not accept. Barack Obama wins the POTUS because of the civil rights struggle that started in the 60's. Now he provides cover for an exclusionary religious right wing freakshow?

Lee

"The current gift of Rick Warren is that it's ripping the lid off of the beliefs of mainstream America and allowing Democrats a chance to actually learn to practice understanding. Three weeks to go!"

Loved your videos, you are dead wrong on this one.

Again, you cannot be inclusive by including the decidedly exclusive.

I hope Sarah Palin does something incredibly idiotic, in public, today. It seems like she's the only one who could divert our attention from the Rick Warren issues, and I, for one, am really getting sick of this discussion.

It seems to me that religion in general is much more exclusive than inclusive and causes more deviseness than anything else I can think of.

make that "diviseness" above

There's a difference between Rick Warren's intolerance and those of us who can't stomach, er 'tolerate' him:

For me, it centers around Separation of Church and State. Denying Civil Rights to a large group of people, because of what "it says in the Bible" about marriage--Prop. 8.

Rick Warren has the right, granted to him by the 1st Amendment, to say and "preach" whatever he wants. As ridiculous and hateful as it may be(in my opinion). Freedom of Speech.

But to MANDATE against homosexual couples is, in my opinion, a sin.

The right to be with(in a legally protected union) the person you love for the rest of your life applies to all human beings.

If you're a Pentacostal, Evangelical, turnip-worshipping WHATEVER, I support your right to believe to your very core whatever the Hell you believe.

But when you collectively organize to enact legal measures taking rights away from loving, committed men and women--I condemn you.

It's mean-spirited, self-righteous, holier-than thou discrimination based on nothing but fear and loathing of all things different than yourself.

That is NOT Jesus.

I think when we're facing Judgement Day, y'all are going to be the ones sitting in the corner, wearing the Dunce cap.

The current gift of Rick Warren is that it's ripping the lid off of the beliefs of mainstream America and allowing Democrats a chance to actually learn to practice understanding.

Look, Democrats/liberals/progressives aren't rallying to have Warren's marriage anulled; we're not comparing him to a pedophile; we're not condemning him to hell. Given these statements, it's not *liberals* who need to be learning to practice understanding -- speaking for myself, I have a pretty firm understanding of Warren's remarks about abortion, marriage and so on.

Understanding hateful attitudes doesn't necessitate accepting them.

"and every philosophy too"?

Lumping religion with philosophy is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Since when does philosophy equate with dogma?

Eating too much DcMonalds of late, Lee?

In my younger days, I thought religion was a group reinforced delusion that spent most of it's time dreaming up excuses for the obvious absence of the object of its worship, but that it was harmless. It really is no longer benign if it ever was. It has an agenda and it does not respect the rights, or the beliefs, of outsiders.
When we tolerate intolerance, we are part of the problem. And when some say it is ok to believe and to propagandize intolerance, as no harm is done, then consider this... if non-Christians are going to Hell for an eternity of suffering, does it really matter if they get some practice first in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo? Does it even matter how, or how fast, they go to Hell? If they get there with the help of some napalm, over-zealous torture or phosphorous bombs, then isn't that just helping God fulfill His plan?
Intolerance is very dangerous, and explains how otherwise normal looking people can go on television and argue for torture and the removal of rights from people they don't even know. Giving Warren a prominent position on the national stage is not just being agreeable, it is rewarding and promoting intolerance.

Well, I say just ignore Rick Warren about who is going to hell, he doesn't know what he is talking about, and he lives in fear that maybe he doesn't believe ENOUGH.

i'm a universalist, so when i preach godd news, it really IS good news, for everyone, not just the ones who were "smart enough" or "chosen" to believe.

relax, everyone, you're in absolutely no danger. That's the Gospel.

The amount of cognitive dissonance and compartmentalization has got to be pathological.
People like Warren, I get. It is a racket and a power-trip. I SEE where it benefits him. He's a pudgy nebbish who, by this invisible product, is crazy-powerful and important.
The rubes who BUY this poison, and who are, at base level, "good" people, but who can swallow the inherent contradiction and do so willingly, those people scare the piss out of me.

Has everyone met Josh? He's my Jesus now.

Seriously, outstanding comment above. I wish I had the time and attention span to write a concise diatribe like this for why religious zealots are going to be the death of us all. Kudos, sir.

For supplemental reading: "A Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris.