Wow, Elvis, We actually agree on something.

Blowing you a long distance, dripping wet, french kiss complete with breakfast chunks, baby. ;o)

President Obama has only succeeded in depriving our nation of the tools necessary to keep Americans safe from harm.

Torture in of itself is terrible, no argument there. However, the world is not full rainbow unicorns that poop magic gold, no matter how many liberals wish it were so. We have to fight fire with fire, brutality with brutality. Otherwise we would be seen as weak and submissive, ripe for another massive terror attack.

George W. Bush understood this clearly, which is why he protected all of us by any means necessary.

-A

"A"

You are simply wrong.

How can you claim to be protecting freedom by skewering it?

You don't sacrifice what you are trying to save and protect.

This whole torture thing has left me completely disgusted by it since it was first revealed. But I think there's a bigger revelation that we may have only just barely avoided.

The Shock Doctrine.

I think torture was justified so the Bush admin could practice it and evolve it outside the country on "enemy combatants". I know how wierdly conspiratorial it sounds, but at the same time, it's frightening how it fits together. The only thing that seems to have stopped it from taking place here was that Iraq was so badly managed. 911, the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretaps, torture, xenophobia, forced patriotism, gerrymandering, on and on.

Again, I know how conspiratorial that sounds. But on the other hand, this is the GOP we're talking about. When you don't have a good plan, it must be implemented by force, and I think we avoided that path starting with the 2006 mid-terms.

I may be connecting totally unrelated events, but after reading The Shock Doctrine, there are just too many parallels.

Atanarjuat, nobody needs a zombie parrot reciting dead talking points.

There is no proof that torture has made America safer. In fact, it has damaged our credibility and made us less safe today than we were eight years ago.

If you can't understand how that is, then I suggest an experiment. GItheJoe and I can make a torture video and get you to confess to...well, that's the beauty of it. You will make shit up and confess it gladly because you just want the torture to stop. And then we'll see if your relatives get mad at us for doing it.

President Obama has only succeeded in depriving our nation of the tools necessary to keep Americans safe from harm.

Torture in of itself is terrible, no argument there. However, the world is not full rainbow unicorns that poop magic gold, no matter how many liberals wish it were so.

So, why are you crazy right-wingers mad when DHS creates a report to assess the threat of domestic terrorism from extreme right-wing groups (which have been KNOWN to attack and kill inside the U.S.)? Is it because your morals permit you to do anything to anyone--until the person it's being done to becomes you?

"Protection by any means necessary" is among the most anti-freedom concepts you could throw out there. He who would sacrifice his liberty for safety deserves neither, and that means you.

@A

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
-Benjamin Franklin

Do you really think that Benjamin Franklin, whose actions (along with the other founding fathers) were met with threats of death by hanging, were living in a world any less frightening to them?

Do you really believe that every other generation before us, that faced threats unfathomable to them at the time, was willing to give up the very ideals they were fighting for?

Do you really believe the George W Bush is a mental giant among all those great visionaries in the history of America? That he faced a threat so incomparable to those before him, that he HAD to destroy the moral fabric of our ideals to protect us, through torture, invasion of sovereign countries, and ripping the relationships with allies we have so delicately fostered through the centuries?!?

NO

A,

No I can't agree with you on any level. Your "ends justify the means" analogy does not hold water. We cannot offer the exact opposite of what we claim to hold dear. George Bush didn't protect anyone from anything. Just look at how bad off we are economically, politically, AND globally thanks to his scorched-earth legacy.

Even here, civil political discourse is breaking down. W and Co. and the GOP ideology have fucked this place up and it's going to take time to recover.

jjasonham, I can see those words gave us the same initial reaction.

Sort of like all of these people who are criticizing the release of the torture memos, with the line:
"The terrorists will know all of our tactics."

WHO GIVES A FUCK WHAT THEY KNOW? I want to know what the fuck my government is doing, particularly in regards to TORTURING HUMANS, and if disclosing such also requires that our enemies will know, THEN SO BE IT.

Sorry for the caps. Too lazy to use italic tags.

'We have to fight fire with fire, brutality with brutality. Otherwise we would be seen as weak and submissive, ripe for another massive terror attack.'

That's very 'Christian' behavior there.

I completely agree with Elvis. Bringing these memos to light takes the speculation out of what we already knew and bitch slaps the faces of all the Bushites. Also, from this point forward, there will be no more 'rewriting history' when it comes to the Bush legacy.

Ah yes, one more point ...

those that are being tortured are NOT the ones responsible for the attack on U.S. soil. We have yet to bring to justice the individual responsible for that.

"A" was the usual gutless drive-by Troll. Ignore him.

Or ... perhaps report him to the Department of Homeland Security. I think he should be monitored with the very tools he so willingly advocates. And by monitored I mean "ass-raped" until he tells us the information we want to hear. We'll mention to the presiding judge we get our "enhanced techniques" permission from, that he has indicated he has a fear of "ass-raping", so maybe we could lock him in a box with an out-of-control dildo. The dildo, while anatomically impossibly large, will not be large enough to actually cause death, but he'll definitely think he's getting his life fucked out of him. This is something we must do to protect us from the Trolls. Anyone that disagrees wants the Trolls to win.

A -

EPIC FAIL you are.

Well said, Mr. The Dingeldein. Very well said.

My guess is that A - stands for Ass that hates freedom.

Elvis, very well said. Thank you.

I would just like to note that, while as a Flaming Liberal I do wish the world was full of Rainbow Unicorns That Poop Magic Gold, I am certain that if they roamed freely amongst us there'd be a Second Amendment Shithead with an Uzi ready to shoot said creatures in their assholes.

Excellent post, sir! It is so very important that we do not allow the revisionist history that has been attempted to occur. Bush cannot be allowed to slink off into history without everyone knowing that he is a complete and utter waste of skin who hid behind his last name and religion.

And A, you are an idiot.

Excellent post, and very well-said. I blogged on this today as well. I've been not really dealing with this issue head-on, but now that we are here (or really, now that I'm here) - wow...

And, "A" - the BS has already been called on your trollish post:

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=20062

Give Them Time To Coalesce Around Talking Points

by John Cole

Sullivan yesterday noted an odd silence over the torture memos, and I predict that will end now that the new talking points have been released in the WSJ op-ed pages. For fun, look for instances of the phrase “tied his own hands” in the right-wing blogosphere when they discuss the subject.

If you were all that concerned about that, perhaps you'd have made that point yesterday, rather than wait to hear it from on high.

QT

George W. Bush understood this clearly, which is why he protected all of us by any means necessary.

He didn't protect ALL of us - didn't protect the soldiers he sent off to Iraq to invade & occupy that country with shitty equipment and no exit strategy. Didn't protect those who died from the anthrax mailings. Didn't protect the people shot and killed by Mohammed & Malvo (you think they aren't/weren't terrorists? Think again)
Didn't even think about protecting those who died on 9/11/01 or who died in NOLA. (he was on vacation, dontcha know)

His OATH was to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. And he was a miserable, cowardly, bullying failure at doing the ONE thing he promised all of us he would do...

Elvis, I wonder how big a role scaring the bejesus out of Dick Cheney may have played in the genesis of American torture policy.
..................................................
On page 3 of Jane Mayer's "The Dark Side," is this:

"The next day, the worst of these fears seemed realized. On October 18, 2001, an alarm in the White House went off. Chillingly, the warning signal wasn't a simple fire alarm triggered by the detection of smoke.

It was a sensitive, specialized sensor, designed to alert anyone in the vicinity that the air they were breathing had been contaminated by potentially lethal radioactive, chemical, or biological agents.

Everyone who had entered the Situation Room that day was believed to have been exposed, and that included CHENEY. "They thought there had been a nerve attack," a former administration official, who was sworn to secrecy about it, later concluded. "It was really, really scary. They thought Cheney was already lethally infected."
..................................................

Is it possible that this event triggered a willingness to go beyond Constitutional and International law?

And, is it possible that agents of the government planned to scare Dick Cheney and others into a panic state in order to move this extra-Constitutional process along?

And remember folks, until President Obama repudiates EVERY extra-Constitutional act of the previous administration that we STILL do not have a President, but a Constitutional-Dictatorship.

Emergency war powers of the executive allow for the Courts and Congress to become invisilbe in making policy. When the checks and balances of these institutions are hindered we do not, and cannot have a President.

oh, and Mukasey & Hayden are mighty hot under the collar that some of the memos were released.
Since they weren't actually doing the torture (on assumes) they haven't been promised that they wouldn't be prosecuted....

Superb post! About the most pointed and concise description of GWB and his most un-excellent presidential adventure I've read lately.

* I see you have Attanut the spoof troll. Must be his day off from Balloon Juice.

Thanks for the post, Elvis.

I have a question: Now that these memos have been released, what happens to the soldiers that were thrown under the bus and are currently serving prison sentences for the goings on at Abu Grahib?

Obviously, their tactics were ordered from the top and not just something they made up that looked extremely similar to what these memos authorized.

No reason being President?

No shit?

Well said, Elvis, and thank you.

Sorry about the slight smell of mothballs, but I just had to say that in uniform..........

Have you ever smelled mothballs?

How'd you get their legs apart?

ba dum bum psssh

Will you be appearing here all week? Should I try the veal? I remembered to tip my barmaid.......

elvis, i think you're wrong and right. right that we absolutely have to keep our voices of disdain for bush and the truth being heard, because as you know, i think some people's legacy (CO"lincoln"UGH) have major edits and omits. however, i think you are wrong that bush will never feel remorse or shame. having an alcoholic father (lucky me) and seeing the true character and mindset of an alcoholic, i feel bush knows exactly how shitty he is. i see addictions as signs of weakness and mind calmers/boosters for those that feel they are no good, shitty people! i haven't read sullivan's article, but i agree that bush has two lives in his brain lobes. the self assertive, bring it on, i am strong, i am likable, can handle anything public persona and the private cold, heartless, dead person that deep down knows his true reality and the consequences of his actions. he knows what a useless piece of failed shit he is, but would never admit it!

btw. a la peter venkman: "i've read better, but not many." ;)

Note this story about Bush torture:

"Bush Memos Parallel Claim 9/11 Mastermind's Children Were Tortured with Insects....

"American agents used insects to torture the young children of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3836789

Recall that after 9/11 Bush rushed the Ben Laden family out of this country soon afterward even though all air traffic was suspended and suspension pointed to Osama Bin Laden.

"At least 13 relatives of Osama bin Laden, accompanied by bodyguards and associates, left the United States on a chartered flight eight days after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, according to a passenger manifest released on July 21, 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Laden_family#The_Bin_Laden_flights

Why wouldn't Bush want to find out the whereabouts of Osama by doing to his relatives what he did to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's chidren?

George W. Bush understood this clearly, which is why he protected all of us by any means necessary.

-A

Posted by: Atanarjuat at April 17, 2009 1:23 PM
-----------------------
Why do country's like Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, etc seem to avoid having to stoop to the depths to combat boogie man terrorists?

Some of you have willfully ignored my exceedingly clear admission that torture is terrible. I've made no attempt to sugarcoat it or make it somehow more acceptable by invoking the "enhanced interrogation" misnomer.

Of course torture is apalling. Any decent human being, upon reading the techniques used on the enemy combatants detained in Cuba, is rightly shocked and dismayed to learn that such viciousness was done in the name of America. The United States of America is supposed to stand fast against such hideous practices. These are things that we have consistently condemned other nations for doing.

I couldn't make myself any more clear on the subject of torture.

The big HOWEVER is that our methods of torture should have been kept secret and away from prying eyes. There's nothing so dispiriting and disillusioning to learn that the country that captured you, that you, as a terrorist, thought would read you your Miranda Rights and never inflict on you the endless pain you deserve, will not hesitate to do so and show no mercy. That's how you break these determined, homocidal Allahu Akbar-chanting minions of Islam.

Do you really think these Middle Eastern scumbags care a whit about Geneva Conventions or anyone else's human rights? They'd kill any kafir on sight (that's any of us who are non-believers -- infidels) to help ensure their ascent to Heaven. The only language Muslim extremists understand is force -- not the sweet and calm words of reason, delivered by the UN or a genuflecting teleprompter.

I just hope that Obama considers what's really at stake here before he continues to appease the "Arab street" in his quest to bridge our differences (and I hope he never succeeeds completely -- I like keeping my head connected to my body, thank you very much). The Islamic fanatics in the Middle East have repeatedly vowed undying hatred for the West, including America, and we should not even pause for the briefest second in responding to this clear and present danger with vigorous and overwhelming force.

Nothing should be left off the table in the defense of America.

Nothing.

If, God forbid, America suffers another paralyzing terror attack, just remember, liberals, that in your partisan haste to bash and smear Bush once again, you will have been witless accomplices in helping to lower our guard, and even more dismayingly, informing our worst enemies that we shall offer them therapy instead of rightfully breaking their bones.

-A

If, God forbid, America suffers another paralyzing terror attack, just remember, liberals, that in your partisan haste to bash and smear Bush once again, you will have been witless accomplices in helping to lower our guard

Oh go and piss on yourself, you spoofin' wanker.

you will have been witless accomplices in helping to lower our guard,
seriously - we already heard that, A. I got an earful of people telling me that if I voted for Lamont, I'd be aiding the terrorists. Same with voting for Kerry, and Obama. Give it a rest. God forbid we use the rights guaranteed to us under the Constitution - that piece of paper that Bush chose to spit on.

and what about when the torturers get it wrong?? What happens then? Just say "oh, sorry"??
from here - TPC
Oh, um, except for that (at least) one time when....
We spotted one in footnote #28 on page 31 of a May 30, 2005, memo from the Department of Justice, where the DOJ admits that waterboarding of a detainee may have been used unnecessarily “on at least one occasion.”

The CIA’s inability to figure out which detainees had useful information “may have resulted in what might be deemed in retrospect to have been the unnecessary use of enhanced techniques,” the partially redacted footnote states.

Don'tcha hate when that happens?

In this case, the CIA “reasonably believed” Mr. Zubaydah was withholding important information that might help protect the U.S. against terror attacks, says the memo, so it was acceptable to waterboard him even though the belief was later proved false. The memo is signed by Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven Bradbury.

Do you really think these Middle Eastern scumbags care a whit about Geneva Conventions or anyone else's human rights?

No. What's your point? An Eye For An Eye gets you a nation of blind men, and I'd rather err on the side of Law, Justice and Humanity than get in the gutter with head-choppers. It's empty-souled fuckwits like yourself that make this country weaker, not stronger.

The only language Muslim extremists understand is force -- not the sweet and calm words of reason, delivered by the UN or a genuflecting teleprompter.

Right. "Force." Like in Afghanistan? The world's greatest, strongest, most high-tech and ass-kicking military is hopelessly mired in a 12th Century shithole by an enemy that lives in caves and sets off bombs built in basements. How's that "force" working out for us against those Evil Muslims? Chickenhawk asshat.

The Islamic fanatics in the Middle East have repeatedly vowed undying hatred for the West, including America, and we should not even pause for the briefest second in responding to this clear and present danger with vigorous and overwhelming force.

Against whom, exactly? All Muslims? Saudi Arabia? Again: Where has Vigorous and Overwhelming Force gotten us in Afghanistan? Or Iraq? This isn't a problem we can kill -- or torture -- our way out of, or have you not been paying fucking attention for the last 8 years?

You chickenhawks make me laugh. "Force!" "Murder Death Kill!" "Bone-breaking!" Like supply-side economics, your Look At My Big Cock Global Order meme has been thoroughly debunked. Go wag yours somewhere else.

What dipshits like A don't get is beyond the fact that torture is immoral, IT DOESN'T WORK!

Every review of these "enhanced interrogation" methods has reached the same conclusion: That all we've accomplished through these methods is to waste time and resources chasing down false leads. Very little, if any, real actionable intelligence has ever been recovered through waterboarding or other torture.

True, D.C., but I stay away from that argument because it implies that The Tortures™ would be tolerable if they did occasionally provide actionable results. With issues of moral absolutes -- the United States does not torture -- we can't ever argue the Ends justifying the Means. Period.

The problem, Elvis, is that these bedwetters don't care about the moral arguments. All they want is to know that the president is willing to do anything to protect them (unless of course, the threat is from rightwing extremists. They need their civil rights protected!). All they care about is the ends.

You can't make a moral argument against someone how has no concept of morality.