How can Obama be any more clear? He is saying the same things now as he has all a long. His narrative has been all along to reduce costs, remove loopholes for denying care, and save ourselves from healthcare literally bankrupting the entire country.

The healthers at least have a rallypoint point to be passionate about? Yes, their rally point is a shinning beacon of everything that is wrong with this country. Stupidity, ignorance, prejudice, and incoherence.

You lend credance to that "rallying point?"

It's not a matter of lending credence, it's a matter of using my senses...

There's close to ZERO public shows of excitement on the side of health care reform. Nothing. And there WERE excited people during the election.

Talk about a lack of clear narrative.

>>the current mess is the result of far too big a bill

So the bills are too big. But we should have single-payer which would, in fact, dwarf these bills.

Lee wrote:

>>>There's close to ZERO public shows of excitement on the side of health care reform. Nothing. And there WERE excited people during the election.

Protests are a waste of time. Fundraising and digital activism are far more impactful and serious. Firedoglake and many others on the left (including us here) have been using modern technology to influence lawmakers in a way that's measurably more effective than a rabble of people on the sidewalk. Your videos, for example, reach far more eyeballs -- people that will take your message seriously -- than if you were to stand on a street corner with a sign.

The length of the bill would be fine if it were for a comprehensive change like single payer - that's my point.

What we have now is a mystery mess.

I've said over and over in my videos I support the public option - is THAT in the bill? Which bill? Whose bill?

I agree about the need for Dems to have a clearer message on this.

But what exactly is the "rallying point" of the other side again?


--That they "want their country back"? What does that have to do with this healthcare bill?

--That Obama is violating the Constitution? In what way, how, where's the evidence?

--That Obama is setting up "death panels" and government euthanasia? Complete and utter bullshit not grounded in any relality.

--That the kid in the wheelchair won't be covered by the public option? Why not? Based on what reasoning?

These points are at least as incoherent as the bill itself, no matter how loudly they are shouted. And they should be child's play to debunk at every turn.

One of their rallying points is that they have no idea what's in the bill or what it will mean.

That's true.

Another point is that they don't trust politicians.

Me, either.

>>>What we have now is a mystery mess.

Nice. Repeating wingnut talking points is always effective. What's next, Lee? "Slow down!"???

>>>I've said over and over in my videos I support the public option - is THAT in the bill? Which bill? Whose bill?

Then read the bills!

Congressional legislation is messy. If you can't deal with the messy, I don't know what to tell you.

Lee wrote:

ADDING : I think it's also time to admit that we on the left don't really know what's in the health reform bill, either. That doesn't mean we should let the lies and distortions stand but who's really read this thing?

Your ignorance about the content of the legislation is your own, Lee. Don't presume to speak for the rest of us.

If you're not interested in discovering the wonky details of legislation, then stick with the Tubagoo and Public Option videos -- the conceptual broad-stroke stuff. But if you want to get wonky about the legislation, then READ IT.

Sheesh.

The Public option is in both the House AND Senate version of the Bills. President Obama is definitely pushing that part of the bill, and if you had noticed, he has changed his language from calling this health care reform to "health insurance" reform. It was in his address to the nation on Saturday, and again in his town hall yesterday.

There is a pretty big target on private insurers right now, and what I am hearing is that even Conservatives (actual citizens, not their bribed, lobbied bitches) are starting to see the light of reasoning against insurers. I've experienced it myself, with several hard-line conservatives that I know acknowledging that we have many valid points when it comes to private insurers, their rising costs, and dwindling benefits.

If I've heard that, Lee, can you imagine that the White House has maybe heard it as well? Could explain the language change.

By the way, Lee. You need to develop and nurture a oldier's mentality. The battle isn't over until you've won, surrendered, or died. This battle is just getting fun. Anti-Reformists (you might think about using language like that when describing your opponents...it works) are throwing the kitchen sink at us right now, and we're flushing it all down the toilet.

"oldier" is supposed to be "soldier"

PPP wrote:

Anti-Reformists (you might think about using language like that when describing your opponents...it works) are throwing the kitchen sink at us right now, and we're flushing it all down the toilet.

BINGO! Spot on.

"Can you guys stop fighting? My parents used to fight and then my stepfather tried to make out with me!" SNL's Gapardy? Anyone?

Anyways, this is a perfect example of what Bob was talking about the other day. Us getting pissed off at each other instead of rallying together.

Personally, I think Lee is right - there hasn't been a clear narrative. But I place that firmly at the feet of Congress. Obama has been giving us a narrative as clearly as humanly possible, and our Congress isn't carrying it through. And hell, when the Republicans tried to use racial politics to make him take time away from delivering his message on healthcare, he neutralized it one fell swoop by having a godamn "beer summit." Nice try.

I mean, what more do you want from the guy? He's on TV EVERY DAY talking about people getting dropped from their insurance once they get sick, being denied insurance for a preexisting condition, seeing their premiums skyrocket for no reason, the number of uninsured Americans.....WHAT THE FUCK MORE DO YOU WANT FROM THE GUY???!!! How much more clear can the narrative get?

He sees Democratic Senators getting steamrolled by wingnuts at their town hall forums, and what does he do? Gets on TV and gives a fucking tutorial on what a town hall forum is supposed to look like. He's "letting Congress handle it" Lee? Are you serious?

The number of bills floating around is a bit ridiculous, but that can hardly be blamed on Obama (although I wouldn't be surprised if he's already taking behind-the-scenes steps to fix it...expect that to be taken care of shortly). The length of the bills shouldn't even be a point of contention - that's how ALL bills are written. That's just the way it is. These things have to be written in hardcore "legal-ese" so that they're absolutely airtight.

I have never had any problem understanding the goals of Obama's push for reform. He has outlined them on numerous occasions, and, save for the exception of switching from calling it 'health care reform' to 'health insurance reform' (which was a good move, I think, and should have been done sooner, but live and learn...) I can't see that he has varied from those goals.

It's not running a campaign for election. There won't be that inherent excitement building up and then casting a vote on the final day. Many people in this country don't feel (or think they don't feel) the effects of the health care crisis, and thus aren't getting worked up, and I don't know what you do about that. Sometimes I think that most people can't think through to the end of the week, much less a decade down the road if things are left unchecked. It's like the movie 'Idiocracy". You tell them in five years you'll be spending half your income, one way or the other, for health insurance, and they smile and say "Brawndo's got electrolytes!"

And then there's this:

Grassley Endorses "Death Panel" Rumor: "You Have Every Right To Fear"

It's the headline on the HuffPo political page.

http://iowaindependent.com/18456/grassley-government-shouldnt-decide-when-to-pull-the-plug-on-grandma

Keep those toilets running. We keep flushing it down (thanks for the imagery, Mr. Pooper) and they keep hauling it back up.

I'm feeling better about things than I did a couple of days ago. Called my Senator's local office this morning (it's Bayh - can't have everything) and had a nice talk with a staffer, who actually was taking down the points I was making. He said that these calls are important, and that they are paying attention to them. They are also screening - you leave a message and they call you back. I imagine that keeps the crap down.

I'm about a third of the way through HR3200 and it looks quite good. There is a public option and it will work in concert with State, Medicare and Medicaid plans and oversight that are in place now. There would be significant improvement of access to care and increase the buying power of the government health plan.

I think the public option will have an excellent chance at staying viable as we continue to email and call our reps and sens with our request for that to stay in the ultimate bills.

...Adding: A few days ago, Jon Stewart replayed some old clip of a right-winger asking Bush the Lesser, "Mr. President, what can I do to help YOU."

I'm not talking about blind faith here, but if you're not sure what's going on, a little deference to a guy in charge with whom you agree ideologically can go a long way. There's a reason why Republicans are more effective at getting things done than Democrats - 1) Spines, and 2) Loyalty/deference.

Lee wrote:
>>>There's close to ZERO public shows of excitement on the side of health care reform. Nothing. And there WERE excited people during the election.

This is because most of us that support reform are fairly level-headed and realistic, and our natural reaction when we see people acting stupid/crazy is to turn away from it. Kind of like a kid throwing a tantrum, if you get mad the kid has won, walk away and the tantrum just looks stupid. I'm walkin away.

Your post reminds me of what Jon Stewart asked Austin Goolsbee last night. He asked if Obama sighs when he hears what Americans are saying. He also asked if Obama's approval rating of us has declined.

I would think so.

Robert Reich makes a good point on why the Astroturfers are able to disrupt these meetings with little resistance from progressives:

"...Mainly because there's still no healthcare plan. All we have are some initial markups from several congressional committees, which differ from one another in significant ways. The White House's is waiting to see what emerges from the House and Senate before insisting on what it wants, maybe in conference committee.

"But that's the problem: It's always easier to stir up fear and anger against something that's amorphous than to stir up enthusiasm for it."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/how-to-fight-heathcare-fe_b_257825.html

Lee wrote, "The committee driven mess of bills we have isn't much for our side to cheer about."

Lee seems to be under the impression that this debate would be different, if we had a single bill to rally around--easily understood by anybody at the eighth grade level.

However, such a bill would NOT change the behavior of opponents or the media. Opponents distort and lie irregardless of the complexity (or lack thereof) of legislation they oppose and the media passes such distortions/lies on for public consumption. We'd still be exactly where we are today.

I said this on a post earlier, but I'll say it here to: The problem isn't Obama failed to lead. It's that we failed to follow. The curse of the left is that old chestnut the President likes to trot out about the perfect getting in the way. The right NEVER does, which is why they always are a lot closer to achieving their goals than the left is.

Every proposal Obama has put forward has been met with "not enough" or "too much." But it's a lot easier to rally around "too much." And so the right wins every battle.

The way I understand it, it's a legislative PROCESS. It's not like someone lays a bill like an egg, and it gets voted up or down -- not something as big and kludgy as this must be. The sausage making is distasteful enough that it didn't make it into the Schoolhouse Rock version of how legislation is written.

Could it have worked better and faster if Obama had tried to pass this stuff by fiat (which he is inexplicably accused of) rather than through the regular channels of congress? Probably. But he chose to follow the rules, and challenge citizens and leaders to step up. Incidentally, I didn't vote for a dictator, no matter what the wingnuts might think.

In large measure, they have. Bob and Stranahan are both good examples.

To think that there would be no opposition is naive.

Keep calling, keep writing, and keep an eye on the ball.

It's a mess. No doubt. I don't like the Baucus bill though it is better than the status quo. I very much doubt it could get through congress intact. My favourite is the Wyden-Bennett option but would Obama have to veto it? If he increases taxes on the middle and lower class America he is practically forfeiting his 2nd term. Maybe not? What do you think? Would Obama veto the Wyden-Bennett bill?

Not having one bill is problematic, which is why Obama pushed so hard for it, but Congress dawdled. Now we have what we have. But this could be a time to strengthen the end product, not diminish it. Obama and our reps are out there braving the crazies, we need each in our own way to do the same and keep getting the truth out there.

Well, it should be a lively radio show tonight.,...

I think Obama screwed up. He made a mistake. He should have led more instead of leaving it to Congress. You can't say what's happened has been successful, can you?

And another mistake - TOO MUCH. He could have pushed for a series of smaller bills, going after low hanging fruit like recissio or pre-existing conditions or portability.

Get some health care wins. Build a juggernaut.

I hadn't read Robert Reich's piece when I wrote this but once again we're thinking along similiar lines and Reich is right - There's no plan.

It's time to face effin' reality - our President messed up. It's okay - time to fix it. But first face reality.