Old Harry is in a bit of a pickle.

The dems won't cave into Lieberman. Reconciliation appears to be the only option.

Gang of Dicks---PRICELESS.

Hey that's really intellectual /snark/.

I still think we should pinch Lieberman's nipples until he squeals, and says "yes".

Reid is not going to use reconciliation. Period.
After watching Reid's performance on this bill, why would anyone think he's going to pull out all the stops now?

Lieberman, Nelson and the rest of the malcontents have NOTHING to lose at this point. They will keep being obstinate until:

1) Whatever bill is passed is essentially just a big giveaway to the insurance companies. (And that's pretty much where we are at now, anyways.)

2) No bill will be passed.

Either outcome is perfectly acceptable to Lieberman and his DINO buddies.

I hope they find a way to use reconciliation. Then I want the Dems to hold a press conference and announce that they've stripped Deputy Droop Along of his Chairmanship and have kicked him out of the Dem's Caucus. I'm so sick of this man, I'm now prone to fantasies of him being hit by trucks, buses, large rocks crashing down from mountain sides, or driving his car off a bridge into shark infested waters. Ah! That's better.

Bob - I was on your side until I read the article linked below that succinctly put it all together for me. It aligns with my own experience that the core problem is the high cost of healthcare. Being a self-employed engineer, I make a decent salary, yet I cannot afford another $3100 broken arm (my total after insurance for a simple fracture) on one of my kids. Until the cost is controlled, any action presently under consideration is going to make the problem worse. I like Option 3, "Leave It Alone" until it erupts into a revolution and real change can occur.


http://reason.com/archives/2009/12/10/the-problem-is-cost-of-care

I was under the impression that the bill that is passed out of the senate could then be further modified in conference, and that that bill is what becomes final legislation, pending a simple majority vote in both houses, plus the president's signature.

Isn't this a way past the 60 vote cloture mess that we're in now?

PPP - I wasn't thinking nipples. I am more along the lines of balls in a vise.

Daddy Dave - that article is the biggest bunch of crap I've read in a while. Someone should ask Michael Munger why every industrialized nation can afford to cover it's citizens but the mighty US can't.

Traitor Joe and Bighead are just the result of a rotten system of government.The HCR mess follows.

Bribery works wonders.

Daddy Dave's comment rings true . . .

I like Option 3, "Leave It Alone" until it erupts into a revolution and real change can occur.

Thanks again, Connecticut voters.

Broadway Carl - The reason we can't afford healthcare is because there is no incentive to control costs. On the other hand, providers are awarded for prescribing unneeded tests, expensive drugs, and all sorts of extras to cover their axxes and avoid malpractice lawsuits. Tort reform is a necessary part of reducing healthcare costs.

Daddy, you can say "ass" here. Ass ass ass.

Look at the numbers, Dave. Tort reform will lower costs approximately a grand total of 1.5%.

“It’s really just a distraction,” said Tom Baker, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School and author of “The Medical Malpractice Myth.” “If you were to eliminate medical malpractice liability, even forgetting the negative consequences that would have for safety, accountability, and responsiveness, maybe we’d be talking about 1.5 percent of health care costs. So we’re not talking about real money. It’s small relative to the out-of-control cost of health care.”

Continuing with the same article....

...“defensive medicine” is not the same thing as wasteful medicine. “Like defensive driving, some defensive medicine is good,” he said. “To change behavior. When you drill down those studies, you see that what it means is, doctors are more careful with patient records. They spend more time with the patient. They’re more careful to say hello and goodbye to the patient. That’s good.”

Other health economists agree that “defensive medicine” is not the main driver of costs, and malpractice liability reform is not a panacea.

“If you were to list the top five or ten things that you could do to bring down health care costs that would not be on the list,” said Michelle Mello, a professor of Law and Public Health at Harvard.

In other words, tort reform as a major cost reducer is a red herring.

Thanks again, Connecticut voters.

Hey, you're welcome!
Yup - it's all our fault. No fault rests with the people of Maine, Texas, Arizona, Utah, South Carolina, Tennessee, Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama, Kansas, Idaho, etc., etc. People in those states bear no responsibility for electing douchebags. Just one of them could decide to vote for HCR and take away Lieberman's power, but nope. Easier to blame CT than to write/email/call those senators demanding reform...

Come on now, we cannot go back to the 2006 Midterms now. Whether or not you blame Connecticut voters for the outcome, Joe Lieberman is a senator from Connecticut until January 2013. Nothing can change that. We must all concede the fact of a 60 seat Democratic majority. We are not the Republican party, who is in lockstep on every issue pertaining Democratic initiatives. What the Democrats in both houses as well as the Executive Branch must contemplate is how to proceed forth without failure.

Jane: thanks for the tip! Ass, ass, ass.

Broadway Carl: I regret that I have not come into this fight adequately armed with references. I'll make a point to start keeping track of all the facts so that I can give you the drubbing that you deserve next time we meet! :)

My fact-based opinion was triggered (and backed up by others not referenced) by what I perceived as buck-passing from doctor to doctor when my son broke his arm. Only the last doctor in the line did anything useful, but all charged hefty fees. $3700+ is around 8% of the average Colorado family's gross annual income and works out to $1650/hour for personal care received. I could survive on 3 hours real work per month and donate the rest of my hours to saving burning babies and gay whales if I made that kind of money. The question will come up, "How much should it cost to set and cast a broken arm?" There is money-making opportunity for the first broken bone clinic in my town who'll x-ray, set, and cast an arm for $500. I don't see why it should cost more than that. It requires an x-ray and cast materials and 30 minutes' labor. No drugs are used for a simple bone set.

ceu, why are you bringing up all those red states? What do you expect from a bunch of religious redneck whackjobs? Connecticutans(sp?) are supposedly so intelligent and progressive. You guys had the opportunity to kick this guy to the curb and you didn't. You should be ashamed. If Dianne Feinstein was the one holding it up I'd be embarrassed.

Joe Lieberman is a senator from Connecticut until January 2013. Nothing can change that.

Several things can change that. It's just that most of them are illegal and immoral.

I feel your pain ceu. Living in a red state, never having voted for an "R" but getting lumped in with "religious right wing whack jobs" is kinda not fun.

make that "religious redneck whackjobs"

@ Broadway Carl - I'm actually a law student, so I was just about to launch into the "tort reform" stuff....but then I read your comments, and you pretty much nailed it.

Lawyers are a pretty easy target, and overly-litigious individuals are the source of a lot of problems in this country. But healthcare isn't one of them.

"Tort reform" has become little more than a shallow republican talking point. Since they don't have any answers or ideas of their own on healthcare, they fall back on "tort reform" as their default position. And why not? It sounds pretty good, and not a lot of people even know what the term "tort" means. If you think about it, it's really just republicans' way of saying "Hey I know - let's blame the lawyers. People still hate lawyers, right?"

Hell, this isn't even the first time republicans have pulled this stunt - I'm pretty sure "tort reform" was once a republican talking point on how to fix the economy (as in, no more businesses getting sued = strong economy!). Come to think of it, in addition to being their way of saying "blame the lawyers," it also seems to be their way of saying "Let's do nothing - and substantive reform is out of the question." Healthcare system sucks? Don't try and fix it with all these "regulations." Tort reform! The economy sucks? Don't put new financial regulations in place or attempt to solve the paradox of thrift with a stimulus bill! Tort reform will do the trick!

Of course, they never get around to explaining how upending the common law in favor of statutory damage caps and additional procedural hurdles to filing a suit is going to even BEGIN to reduce costs to a great enough extent to put a dent in the healthcare crisis (or economy, or whatever). Perhaps some limited reforms could indeed help - but they'd hardly be a drop in the bucket.

Either way, you're absolutely right - at this point, it's nothing more than a red herring.

Oh, and was anybody else reminded of Southpark's portrayal of Mel Gibson when they read PPP and Carl's comments regarding twisting Lieberman's nipples or putting his balls in a vice? This is what popped into my head when I was reading those comments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phkw79CyMB4

The sick bastard would probably enjoy it.

You should be ashamed.
Posted by: eljefejeff

WTF should I be ashamed? I voted against him in the primary & the general election. I contributed to & worked for Lamont. What? I should have voted more than once maybe?
Lieberman is the one who should be ashamed & maybe people in those red states need to try harder to not elect douches.