Firebagger Panel Disconnected with Reality

Several members of the firebagger high command appeared on a panel at Netroots Nation to beat their myopic unrealistic mythological drum about how President Obama is the worst president ever, etc, etc.

The panel was called "What to Do When the President is Just Not that Into You." Yeah. Clever -- two years ago. Ugh. Anyway, it was Dan Choi, John Aravosis of AmericaBlog and, naturally, Jane Hamsher collectively lying about the president's record on, among other things, LGBT rights.

Dan Choi appeared on Lawrence O'Donnell last night to repeat all of the hyperbolic silliness about how the president has broken all of his promises to the gay community -- an accusation that simply is not true. Here's the video:

Here's Aravosis during the panel:

"I would probably vote for the president in the end, but I'd also do everything that I can to shame him," said Aravosis, who writes about gay rights issues. "But I don't think they realize how damaging that is." [...]

"We always say we simply expected what he promised," Aravosis said "The White House would rather not engage at all -- at least with the big stuff. We were told he'd be a fierce advocate, and he's been not fierce at all and not much of an advocate."

Not a fierce advocate? Not that into you? Horseshit. Utter horseshit. In addition to the Obama administration deciding not to enforce the Defense of Marriage Act because, in in the view of the Obama Justice Department, the law is unconstitutional, the president has also racked up the following LGBT achievements:

Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which expanded existing United States federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability – the first positive federal LGBT legislation in the nation’s history

Signed repeal of Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell

Signed the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act

Reversed an inexcusable US position by signing the UN Declaration on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity

Extended benefits to same-sex partners of federal employees in 2009 and, further, in 2010

Lifted the HIV Entry Ban effective January 2010

Issued diplomatic passports, and provided other benefits, to the partners of same-sex foreign service employees

Committed to ensuring that federal housing programs are open to all, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity

Banned job discrimination based on gender identity throughout the Federal government (the nation’s largest employer)

Eliminated the discriminatory Census Bureau policy that kept gay relationships from being counted

Instructed HHS to require any hospital receiving Medicare or Medicaid funds (virtually all hospitals) to allow LGBT visitation rights

Required all grant applicants seeking HUD funding to comply with state and local anti-discrimination laws that protect LGBT individuals

Adopted transgender recommendations on the issuance of gender-appropriate passports that will ease barriers to safe travel and that will provide government-issued ID that avoids involuntary “outing” in situations requiring ID, like hiring, where a gender-appropriate driver’s license or birth certificate is not available

Extended domestic violence protections to LGBT victims

Extended the Family and Medical Leave Act to cover employees taking unpaid leave to care for the children of same-sex partners

Issued guidance specifically to assist LGBT tenants denied housing on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity

Check that out. That's a long, long list for someone who "just isn't that into" same-sex rights. Oh -- correction. That's only HALF the list. The rest of the list is here.

And, and, AND the administration announced this late last week:

The Obama administration is set on Friday to issue policy guidance to states expanding their ability to offer same-sex couples the same protections afforded to straight couples when they receive long-term care under Medicaid, the Washington Blade has learned exclusively.

Worse than Bush!

I hope Lawrence O'Donnell hosts a realistic, rational progressive (or several) to enumerate the truth about the Obama administration's LGBT record.

Meanwhile, the firebaggers need to ditch this fiction about the president and embrace reality -- or, better yet, people simply need to stop buying into their ridiculous whining, lying and undermining of a realistic progressive agenda.

  • Maritzasolito

    Firebagger=teabagger for sure.

  • Just thought a few of you might be interested in these enlightening pieces re Hamsher and Greenwald.

    Ratfucker Jane

    Jane stalks shoq on twitter

    Dick of the Day: Glenn Greenwald Compares Liberal Blogger to a Nazi on Twitter

    Jane on Fox


    • Isn’t it interesting how the same old charges get recycled over and over? And at least two of them have to do with shoq. Let’s kick that fortune-cookie demagogue to the curb and maybe we can all get along.

      As for Obama, I think he’s done some good things for the LGBT community, but he’s not a “fierce advocate.” He’s to the right of where the country is on these issues, let alone the Democratic party. There is no way he was going to get much more done legislatively given the Congress, but stronger moral leadership is needed to nudge the debate forward.

  • ranger11

    Is this the most commented post in this blog’s history? I guess civil wars do contain the most passion.

  • Dorothy Rissman

    Bob, I sent your list of accomplishments to a number of blogs. Including Lawrence O’Donnell. Terrific piece.

  • Honestly debating firebaggers is like debating the whack jobs you find in a mental institution. Reality is a four letter word to these pricks, earlier in the year I spent a wonderful 3 days debating firebaggers at one of their safe houses on the net Democratic Underground. And I learned one thing defending a Democratic president and his accomplishments on a Democratic site make you a right wing troll to these people.

    And not only are these people beyond delusional they’re thin skinned, they were like you blaming us for 2010 and I said yeah if you didn’t vote or if you did but you didn’t encourage anyone else you might as well voted Republican. But the highlight of my one man ass firebag ass kicking show is when I pissed off the Cenk Uygur fanboys. I called their guy a fraud and a fake progressive and one of Cenk’s main flunkies that post on DU and work on the Young Turks webcast chimed in and he was like telling me prove what Cenk said was wrong and I did by posting a piece by Al Giordano when he took Cenk’s anti-Elena Kagan article apart and he change the subject.

    These folks are being led by people who only care about pushing their own brand, getting clicks on their sites and views on their YouTube Channel while the country is being burn down by the wingnuts.

    • NintendoWii10

      LOL @ Cenk… the guy is a right wing Reaganite masquerading as a reformed progressive.

      That’s what I’m finding out about many of these so-called “progressives,” many of them are actually “former” Republicans, with “former” being highly in doubt.

      Heck, I read about how Dennis Kucinich “ripped” Obama for not going to Congress with his decision to attack Libya, while at the same time praising GEORGE W. BUSH for asking Congress to go to Iraq. Sure, forget about how Bush lied about WMDs that didn’t exist, forget how his lie took the lives of 4000+ American troops, but at least he friggen asked Congress.

      These UNprofessional left liberal losers really need their heads examined, they truly sound no different than Republicans, and as I pointed out, many of them are actually Republicans like Cenk, Ed Shultz, Arianna Bluffington, the list goes on and on.

      • Cenk a right-winger? You serious? The guy criticizes Obama, but often for just being pathetically weak and using bad negotiating tactics. He doesn’t accuse him of being George W. Bush in disguise.

        • NintendoWii10

          Cenk’s rants sound no different than the rants from the right, “Bwaaaaaaah, Obama is weak and naive…” same shit I hear from Fox News day in and day out, only Cenk claims to be speaking for “the left.”

          A Gallup poll came out recently that showed 80-90% liberal support for Obama, so who are Cenk, Ed, Arianna, Hamsher, Greenwald, Choi and the rest of these liberal loudmouths speaking for? They do more and more to carry out the Republican agenda of kneecaping Obama than Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. As I pointed out, these liberal losers really need their heads examined.

          • dildenusa

            Kneecapping. I like the analogy. My analogy is undermining as in trying to force a cave in.

          • So they kneecap Obama by pointing out his lack of support for whistleblowers? Or his lack of consistency between his Presidency and his campaign rhetoric?

            If he keeps caving to Republican demands, even if only halfway, what am I supposed to think?

            Honestly, I think you’re as bad as the firebaggers you’re railing against. You need to have some nuance. Because Cenk is not the equivalent of Sean Hannity any more than Obama is the equivalent of Bush.

          • NintendoWii10

            “If he keeps on caving to Republican demands”

            What Republican demands has Obama “caved” into? If Obama did indeed “cave,” then why are the Republicans continuing their attempts to make him fail?

            How the hell am I as bad as the “firebaggers,” because I point out how silly and little they are?

            And yes, Cenk Uygur = Sean Hannity when Cenk calls Obama a sellout. That’s the same BS they say on Fox, that he’s a naive sellout.

            I’m not saying don’t criticize the President. But calling President Obama a right wing DLC Republican corporatist Wall Street lackey which Greenwald, Cenk, Hamsher, Olbermann, Ed, and these other loudmouths have done is NOT criticism. What’s to differentiate them from Glenn Beck and the Fox News trolls when it comes to their vitriol and hatred of Obama?

          • So I ask again: what do we make of his economic team and his lack of action on Wall Street reform?

        • Cenk admitted himself he “was” conservative republican only a few years ago. And Cenk’s criticism of Obama is shaky at best I can link the Al Giordano’s piece where he took an meat ax to Cenk’s anti-Elena Kagan piece.
          Cenk has taken the position everything Obama does suck even when Obama comes out ahead i.e. avoiding a government shutdown deal.

          The problem with this B.S. while a vast majority of liberals and Democrats approve of President Obama the only people they managed to get on MSNBC or CNN are Jane Hamsher, Cenk Uygur and Glenn Greenwald and I don’t know how a Libertarian gets to speak for a movement he doesn’t belong to. And they’re polluting the waters hell if you’re a person that doesn’t follow politics and you see LIBERAL Jane Hamsher and CONSERVATIVE Sean Hannity agreeing that Obama sucks why would anyone vote for him and his party?

          • Because he ceded to Republican demands when the politically smart think to do would have been to call their bluff.

            More often than not, what Cenk says is that Obama could get more by simply standing up to Republicans. Because he’s not going to get R votes with honey. But he can get conserva-Dem votes by telling them how to vote, rather than timidly letting them do whatever.

            I’m detecting a serious lack of nuance in the positions here. What, any criticism of Obama being weak is doing the enemy’s job for them? How?

          • Call their bluff? If you haven’t notice the Republicans main goal is to make sure this country crashes on the side of the mountain just before the 2012 election. Now President Cenk may get the posters at DU moist by fighting with the Republicans but he’s not going to get anything done.

            I ask the question if Obama has an approval rating over 80% among Liberal Democrats how come all we see on cable news is Jane Hamsher, Adam Green, Cenk Uygur and Glenn Greenwald who isn’t even a liberal?

            Now to your question here what damage these faux progressive do, they create a perception that they speak for the entire movement.So if you’re a person who don’t pay attention to politics and you see them on tv bad mouthing what this president is doing why would you vote for him when people who claim to be supporters don’t like him?

            From data I’ve seen Dems voted but we lost indies and young voters another factor is these faux progressives depressed the movement by creating another illusion the president could have done everything he wanted by walking in the congress like Rambo and demanding everything.

          • The Republicans are clowns, but they know better than to crash the government when the spotlight is already on them for abuses of power in places like Wisconsin. They talked tough, but they knew the politically smart thing would not be to trigger a shutdown.

            You’re right, it fits into a pre-defined MSM narrative of the left eating their own.

            But to play devil’s advocate, what exactly do you want to see? 80% of the time having people blowing sunshine up Obama’s rear end?

            Nah, I’d rather know what Obama’s doing, both the good and the bad. Because unless we know about what his administration is doing, especially when it comes to the topic of transparency, how can we call ourselves informed?

          • President Obama has a approval rating over 80% among those that called themselves Liberal Democrats. But all you see on cable news to discuss Obama and the base are people like Jane Hamsher who only speaks for 12% of the liberal movement.

            No one is saying you can’t be critical of the president but these folks are not engaging in that. Adam Green’s group already had that Obama caved on Medicaid email out and running even before his speech.

    • The_Dork_Knight

      Wow. Just wow.

  • You know what these firebaggers remind me of? Vancouver Canucks fans.

    Game 7 of the Stanley Cup? Vancouver rocks!

    Lost that game? Trade Luongo and burn the city!

  • I remember you mentioning that Obama was batting .500 on gay rights. I agree, he’s come up big so far, but if the firebaggers had just chosen another issue, I’d probably agree with them.

    Any other issue really. Wall Street reform? Nope. Protection for whistleblowers? I think the case can be made Obama is worse than Bush there. A second stimulus? Not likely to happen. He caved on tax cuts before the election, an issue where he had clear public support!

    Here’s what I think is infuriating the firebaggers (this is putting aside their penchant for attention, which I’m sure has something to do with it): the fact that Obama is not visibly leading. While he may be playing some kind of 11 dimensional chess behind the scenes, where’s the public pressure on Republicans? Where’s that populism on things like jobs, where the public would certainly back him?

    And it does need to be Obama leading this, because when it comes to the Democratic Senate, more often than not, they follow his lead, especially the pussies like Harry Reid.

    I certainly know this pisses me off to no end. It’s like he really does live in that Washington bubble where the pundits give him the impression of where the “centre” is.

    • Awreally

      An honest, rational argument. WTF are you doing here? Well done sir. Countdown to CescBot’s heads exploding in…..3, 2, 1…….

      • ranger11

        Is this Ronbo or A.F.?

        • Awreally


        • raistuumum

          Nah, he sounds much more of a pathetic blubbering crybaby than AlFred. Which says quite a bit actually.

          • Awreally

            wah. now run and go get yourself some colostrum, raistuumum.

    • JojoRaze

      I don’t find this argument rational AT ALL. The question I have is: Where is the left putting pressure on the Republicans? That’s what LBJ and FDR had that made the New Deal and the Great Society possible. The president said YES WE CAN. That was what hope and change was about: that regular people could pressure CONGRESS, the people who pass the laws ,to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do. LBJ and FDR could pass liberal things because the opposition knew if they didn’t pass the compromises LBJ and FDR came up with, the left and protestors would break down the barricades and hurt them. The left is now a sad shell of itself–a bunch of keyboard commanders demanding the president pressure the opposition when they can’t even do it themselves.

      I am sick and tired of the nutroots abdicating their responsibility as protesters and shapers of opinion. These people can’t even get on TV to elucidate their liberal values; they only get on TV to bash Obama. How does that move the vaunted Overton Window leftward?

      • It’s not that the netroots are abdicating their responsibility. It’s just that on both a practical policy level and a grassroots organizational level, the President has more power and influence, which he more often than not is not using.

        You want that Overton Window to move leftward? Get Obama’s help in controlling the debate parameters. Because Jane Hamsher is not going to be the authority on Wall Street reform. Heck, the American people are there anyway, it’s just the Republicans and the media who will tell you otherwise.

        • NintendoWii10

          Explain how Obama “caved” on tax cuts. Before the 2010 elections, Obama was telling the Democrats to fight for middle class tax cuts, and as a matter of fact, middle class tax cuts only failed in the Senate. Guess whom one of the people who voted against middle class tax cuts only was? The “progressive” hero Russ Feingold, who also voted against closing GITMO, yet you blame Obama for the fault of these progressive liars in Congress.

          Harry Reid a pussy? Do you not recall how he fought against the government shutdown and was out there, front and center saying how he was embarrassed how the Republicans were willing to shut the government down over Planned Parenthood funding? Where were the other “progressive” heroes back then?

          Jobs? Have you not been paying attention? Obama has been out there discussing jobs, but I’m guessing you’ve been distracted by the media hoopla over Anthony Weiner and his penis. Heck, the media cut away from Nancy Pelosi when she was talking jobs and not Weiner, yet that’s also Obama’s fault as well, right?

          You need your head examined, badly.

          • Feingold wanted all the tax cuts to end, if I recall correctly. But either way, you’re talking as if Obama has no sway over his party. He’s their freakin’ President. They vote how he tells them 95% of the time.

            I’m not saying Harry Reid is incapable of courage, but just look at the issues he caves on. Wall Street reform? Health care? National security policy?

            And the fact that the media is still focused on Weiner just shows that he’s not doing enough to keep the pressure up on jobs. Nancy Pelosi is not the President. Barack Obama, an extremely photogenic and personally likeable man, is.

            What I blame Obama for is not controlling his party enough to get on the issues that are really really important (read: the economy). His current economic team is a reflection of that.

            I get it, he’s the best we’ve got to get the stuff that the US needs done. And he’s done a lot. But you can’t possibly be satisfied with his work on certain issues, and lack of Congressional support is really not an excuse, especially back when the Dems controlled the House.

            Yet, I’m the one who needs my head examined eh?

          • NintendoWii10

            You think Obama is a dictator, well you’re wrong.

            Obama is not the Democratic Party leader, Debbie Wasserman Shultz is. Take your complaints up with her, and not Obama. Obama has an entire country to run.

            Again with the complaints of Obama’s economic team. Look at where the economy is now as compared to 2008, and you’re saying Obama’s economic team is a failure?

            And again with the “caved” meme. You set your expectations waaaaaaaaaaaay too high, hence the “caved” nonsense. You should be happy there are any reforms going on at all, or do you want to return to the Bush era days when he and his cronies were robbing the middle class blind?

            Change takes time, yet you and the rest of the UNprofessional left expect and demand of Obama to wave a magic wand and make everything better again. You apparently forgot it was always “Yes WE Can,” meaning this is and always will be a team effort.

          • No no no, I’m not talking about something that takes incremental change like gay rights or civil rights. The economy is more immediate, and doesn’t have those deep societal divisions.

            And the economy is not that great at the moment. Unemployment is still rampant, and the stimulus has run its course.

        • JojoRaze

          You want that Overton Window to move leftward? Get Obama’s help in controlling the debate parameters. Because Jane Hamsher is not going to be the authority on Wall Street reform.

          Again, why does the president have to do EVERYTHING?? Jane Hamsher can be the point person, instead of a grifter, if she focused on organizing people to go to Paul Ryan’s congressional office and make his life hell. The President already lit the fuse, why can’t WE do the rest? That is how movements work. PEOPLE, not POLITICIANS get fed up and MARCH, ORGANIZE, etc, not PRESIDENTS. That is what FDR, LBJ and co had.

          Take the Freedom Riders for example. PBS had a great special about this and I hope the firebaggers watch it and learn how to get people focused on your issue instead of attacking your quarterback, you need to set up a play to help the quarterback to succeed.

          Kennedy did not care about civil rights, he was focused on the USSR. In fact some Southern Dems supported him. When the Freedom Riders got on those buses to get their heads busted open, the Supreme Court had already ruled in 1946 that discrimination in interstate accommodations was illegal. The south just ignored it. What those young people did was bypass the President temporarily by getting on the bus and transgressing Southern norms; and the fact that they nearly got killed for daring to ride on a bus–and one of Kennedy’s advisors who went down South to watch what was going on– galvanized the nation and FORCED Kennedy to take action and get the Interstate Commerce Commission to desegregate buses. Mind you, even Martin Luther King, Jr didn’t initially support the freedom riders. It wasn’t until more kids took over from the first group and more kept on going and getting imprisoned that support for desegregated busing started to build.

          The idea that the President needs to be at the head of everything is a product of laziness and gladiator democracy. It isn’t real and it isn’t historical AT ALL! It’s just keyboard commanderism.

          • I didn’t say he need to be at the head of everything, I’m just saying that the only pushback against the Washington bubble has to come from him. Especially on the economy.

            When it comes to the incremental change, I give Obama huge credit. But the economy doesn’t have that kind of time. And when he’s surrounded by the likes of Tim Geithner and his ilk, who else is he going to listen to? Hence why Paul Ryan is still the basis for all economic discussions in the media.

            Huge credit for the grassroots organizers, like on the union protests for example. But when it comes to influencing POLICY, the Prez has to be there. There’s no way around it. And really, if pointing this out makes me a firebagger, I got to wonder if your anger is clouding your judgment as well.

  • Awreally

    How about a little balance on LGBT lists, huh? He’s not a firebagger but you all love him just the same…….. it’s Markos Moulitsas from the Daily Kos! He’s got a take on the awesome cut and paste job by our lowly host Bob. I’ll excuse JM and Nicole from this reading exercise since they are much better at yelling incoherently than actually processing a differing view. Gasp! Imagine that someone might actually have an opinion about these much vaunted “accomplishments.” Let’s take a look shall we (here’s the link if you prefer to peruse yourself—-

    First in line:
    The Repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

    DADT has not been repealed nor is it required to ever be repealed under the law passed late last year. To clarify, the law passed is an authorization by Congress granting the President, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Secretary of Defense the power to certify that a repeal of the DADT policy (10 U.S.C. §654) will not negatively affect military readiness, the result of which being that 60 days after certification, 10 U.S.C. §654 will be repealed.

    • It appears that you are literate enough to see that the diary you linked to was written by someone named craigkg. Why are you trying to present it as a front page post written by Markos? Then again, maybe you do think Markos personally writes every diary on the site. If so, my apologies for overestimating your intelligence.

  • roxsteady

    What a complete asshole Choi has become. I noticed that he hasn’t been back on Rachel’s show since he lost his mind. He appears to have become unhinged and is now a caricature of himself. Sadly one of my favorite moments for the LGBT community was when Choi was conspicuously absent from the signing of the repeal of DADT. Victor Fehrenbach and several other prominent members of the community were there to stand with the President as true examples of class and dignity; 2 things that Choi has none of. I can’t wait for Monday night when Keith returns. I like Lawrence but, he often brings on people who are predictably stupid and never add anything to the conversation. I love the fact that Keith doesn’t host or tolerate these fools. He knows they’re full of shit and have nothing of value to add to the discourse.

    • NintendoWii10

      Keith isn’t exactly an angel himself, he has publicly stabbed President Obama in the back as much as Choi and the rest of these UNprofessional left losers have.

      The tantrums they all throw is why I have learned to ignore them. They have no solutions or ideas, just legislate by tantrum which has gotten nothing of substance accomplished.

  • I would love for someone to write to Laurence ODonnell and refute this crap these guys are espousing. Unbelievable.

  • ranger11

    Wow, MLK and these overprivileged assholes mentioned in the same thread. That’s pretty weird. We’ll shall overcome indeed.

  • Wow. As a gay that plans to celebrate Pride tomorrow, in this month proclaimed gay prideful in one of the things the president has “done” for us folks-with-a-difference (that we’re supposed to be so immeasurably thankful for that we should ignore the other inequality stuff that hasn’t been gotten around to yet (“Just wait until 2012! He’s going to be able to do EVERYTHING after the next election as long as you people DON’T BLOW IT FOR EVERYBODY!!!!”)), it never ceases to amaze me how this topic always seems to generate an assload of comments. Comments that always lean heavily toward “STFU gays!” more often than not. Disagreeing with the President, or what he’s doing/not doing and how fast it’s being done/not done on a variety of subjects gets one labeled a Firebagger that cost us the House in 2010, wants to primary Obama with HRC, subconsciously views the president as our personal lawn jockey and that secretly are colluding with the teabaggers.

    I think I’ll skip the blog altogether from now on and just stick to the podcast.

    And tomorrow, in this month of Pride, I’ll be doing a lot of teabagging and there wont be any fucking tri-corn hats or “don’t tread on me” flags anywhere in sight.

    • The_Dork_Knight

      Well said, but I do hope you stick around. The last thing this blog needs is less diversity of opinion.

      • So go to FDL and see just how well they tolerate “diversity of opinion”.

    • You’re wrong. On almost all counts.

      It is not that you disagree with him, it’s that you do it so virulently, and you do it with out the slightest inkling of what can and can not be accomplished and in what time frame.

      You all seem to have little to no understanding of the political realities. Many of you threatened to sit out the vote in 2010, and many of you did so. Are you happy with the results?

      I suggest that you all ask yourselves if you really want to leave a civil rights matter up to a Republican president. And act accordingly.

    • JMAshby

      I’d really like to explain to you why you’re wrong, and how no one here has ever said “stfu gays” or expected you to be “immeasurably thankful,” but I just don’t think I have the energy to weed through that amount of hyperbole.

    • NintendoWii10

      Lt Choi, is that you?

    • nellcote

      Obama has issued Pride proclamations for each of the three years in which he’s served in the White House. Former President George W. Bush issued no such proclamation.

      Enjoy Pride Month!

  • Leslie Parsley

    THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. If I sound like I’m shouting, I am indeed. I’ve been screaming and hollering – and writing – that the firebaggers are no different than the teabaggers. Funny that you say they should embrace reality. They’re always saying, “The reality is . . .” when they have no clue what “reality” is. Bravo.

  • ae

    FUCK Dan Choi the REPUBLICAN PLANT and Arivosis and that PUMA Jane Hamsher.They are ALL media whores!

    Choi went to GOP and CPAC who anyone who doesn’t know and he himself said he NEVER voted for Barack Obama and neither did Hamsher.

    How much $ are they making? Can anyone find out how much $ they made bashing Obama?

    Dan Choi is not fighting the LGBT causes but Dan Choi is out to see Dan Choi act like a dangerous shaking loon that he is on tv.

    He loves to hear his own voice and somehow he thinks he is bigger than President Obama.

    You do NOT speak for ME Dan Choi.Thank you for your service but fuck you and fuck off.

    Dan Choi is nothing but a compulsive violent unstable LIAR!
    Can someone;anyone PLEASE lock his ass up again in an hospital like HE did last fall?

  • The_Dork_Knight

    Anything that pushes the Democrats from the left is a good thing. Dr. King was not well liked in his time by the Democrats, for many of the same reasons we are hearing here. Democrats, when they were not trying mightlily to ignore him, were begging to him to slow down, to be patient, while quietly criticizing him for moving too far too fast. For causing problems. Thank God the gay rights movement finally appears to be done waiting. Justice delayed is justice denied. They have adopted the language and strategies of the civil rights movement, so when they say that they are going to “shame” ANY elected official, well good on them.

    • Thank God the gay rights movement finally appears to be done waiting. Justice delayed is justice denied. They have adopted the language and strategies of the civil rights movement, so when they say that they are going to “shame” ANY elected official, well good on them.

      Pure firebagger bullshit.

      Read the list. Pres Obama IS on the their side. You have to be a bloody freaking IDIOT to think it will benefit the LGBT community to help elect a republican.

      Arghhhhhhhhhhh……….the absolute BLINDNESS to the reality infuckingfuriates me!!

      Edited for clarity.

      • The_Dork_Knight

        I know I know. Firebagger bad. Jane Hamsher spat in Bob’s corn flakes. I get it. I swear I will never understand the venom toward these people, even if sometimes they are wong.

        BTW. Read any decent text on the civil rights movement. Its not bullshit. Its history.

        • JMAshby

          Spat in Bob’s corn flakes? That’s brilliant. Are you sure she didn’t spit in America’s cornflakes? Do you really think we’re mad at Hamwald and Choi for personally insulting us? Not because what they are doing hurts the country? Not because what they are doing hurts the party?

          By your own admission, you “will never understand” so why don’t you just shut up and stay out of something you clearly do not understand?

          • FTW.

          • The_Dork_Knight

            Yes, I do think that there is a certain amount of being personally offended here. I see it in the complaining about being called Obots while flinging around terms like firebagger with reckless abandon, and somehow not seeing the irony.

            I think you take it personally because you cant seem to have a rational discussion on the matter. For your never ending angry lashing out ANYONE who thinks that they might have a point. For your complete inability to understand that because YOU are right, from your prespective, they might be a little right from theirs.

            I think you take it personally because you cant maintain basic consideration for your fellow human beings on this subject and instead just tell them to shut up.

            The bottom line, I think you are largely right, but that they have some good points. I think that in a world that is making mighty efforts to corrupt the Democrats in the same manner they have bought off the Republicans, anything that pushes the Democrats from the left is a good thing. I know that makes me a concern troll (or some other made up term) to you. Well, that sucks, but I cant change that.

          • JMAshby

            Holy shit you are so out of touch.

            We can’t seem to have a rational discussion? We’re the only ones having a rational discussion.

            What’s more rational — taking an objective look at the administration’s accomplishments, or ignoring all of said accomplishments and just trotting our your own line of bullshit which has no basis in reality because you’re desperate for attention?

            It doesn’t make you a concern troll, it makes you completely out of your element and out of your depth. You have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s mind-numbing how much you don’t know what you’re talking about.

            You don’t fucking get it. The words of Hamwald and Choi do nothing to advance the cause’s they claim to hold dear. Their actions only advance their careers as professional agitators and trolls.

          • The_Dork_Knight

            You are right, Sir… Im totally out of my depth. Because basic political strategy is sooooo complicated and hard to understand. I wish I were a frigging genius like yourself so that I too could make sense of this bewildering world.

            Thanks for proving my point.

            Guess what? Here’s a basic fact of the world for ya. There are occasions where two reasonably intelligent, decent, and rational people can look at the same facts about the world, and reach different conclusions about those facts.

            I know you’re intelligent. The fact that you are here at all supports you being reasonably decent. That leaves rational, and on this subject you don’t seem to be.

          • JMAshby

            I’ll repeat the fucking question:

            What’s more rational — taking an objective look at the administration’s accomplishments, or ignoring all of said accomplishments and just trotting our your own line of bullshit which has no basis in reality because you’re desperate for attention?

          • The_Dork_Knight

            Fine. They are not ignoring everything that has been done to this point. From their prespective they are focusing on finishing the fight. They are almost done. Full recognition of their basic human rights are within reach, and they are fighting that last battle. A battle, I might add, that President Obama, in what I believe to have been a strategic mistake, has put himself on the wrong side of. They are fighting for that last victory, not being happy with the victories that have come before.

            Second, you might think they are trotting out their own line of bullshit, but a gay woman facing deportation because the federal goverment doesnt recognise her marraige DOESNT think its bullshit.

            Finally, as I have said before, you seem to have some amazing insight into the internal motivations of many “firebaggers”. You have peered into their souls and can now see their criticisms of the Democrats to be the cynical money making schemes that they are. They are not just wrong, you see, they are evil douchebags out to hurt the country.

            So I’ll repeat my fucking question from the last time we had this arguement: How have you accomplished this. When, exactly did you sit down and Hampsher laid out her internal motivations to you?

          • JMAshby

            Yeah, the president has really put himself on the wrong side of the issue by signing the repeal of DADT, instructing the justice department to stop defending DOMA, and extending medicaid protection to same-sex couples.

            That’s not to mention everything else listed above.

            Just because you are entirely unaware of the pathological trolling perpetrated by Hamwald going back 4 years does not mean it requires peering into their souls to know their motivations.

            I am done arguing with you. Such idiocy is a waste of my time. Stay out of arguments you’re clueless about.

          • NintendoWii10

            “focusing on finishing the fight”?

            What fight are they focusing on finishing, the fight to ensure Obama fails?

            These folks have NOT been helping to fight any major fights that led in any substantive results. From the healthcare fight to this fight for LGBT, these UNprofessional left losers have done nothing BUT slow down progress.

        • Corebela

          I think for most of us the venom is just because of the fact that they make it seem as though Obama is doing absolutely nothing good for them when that is way way off.

          It is very obvious to me that he is doing all he can in a very right wing hostility filled environment where the few Republicans who support even the slightest progressive goals do whatever they can to stop Obama from achieving these goals for the simple reason that they do not want him to take credit for anything good. This is a very obvious fact and it just seems that so called firebaggers are willfully ignorant of that fact. THAT is at least what pisses me off about them.

      • The_Dork_Knight

        Ok. Here, in a nutshell, is the strategy being deployed. I this there is room for disagreement on whether this is a good stategy, but this is what they are going with, and it is taken right out of Dr. King’s playbook:

        Public opinion is finally swinging to their side. Now is the time to push. The time to stop playing defense, to stop accepting half measures. Now is the time to push for FULL equality and accept nothing less. It is a position that I am sympathetic to, and to be honest, if President Obama is getting heat on this it is because of his self contradictory and occasionally incoherant stance on full acceptance on gay marraige rights. He is deservedly criticized for his stance on gay marraige. If you look at gay marraige as a moral issues, you suddenly become highly critical of what I believe to be a stance taken out of political expediency rather that what President Obama really believes. Somehow, thats almost worse.

        • First of all, “the time to push”??? WHAT?? Obama will be UNABLE to do ANYTHING until he wins in 2012. ANYTHING. This is pure ignorance talking.

          Second, public opinion? Since when does that even MATTER to Republicans?? Do you think Obama can accomplish LGBT objectives with out Congress?? He CANNOT.

          As in 2010, they have this completely WRONG. I mean, it would be utterly ludicrous and laughable if it weren’t so apt to have serious consequences for EVERYONE in this country.

        • JMAshby


          • Awreally

            once again the douche squad is in full furious effect. bob and obama good anyone even looking funny at him or saying anything bad is FUCKING evil. you too are the perfect personification of everything that is wrong with Scrotum Huggers. You like to stay nice and tight with your masters, we get it. Now fuck off you inconsiderate and irrational and mindless little children, go play in the street and make sure to get hit.

          • raistuumum

            How classy, throwing insults when you don’t have any counterarguments left.

            Just goes to show how ignorant and trivial you firebaggers are.

          • Awreally

            Just trying to stay classy like JM and Nicole. They’ve never suffered a shortage of fuck you’s, grow up, “I’m a realist and you are a child.” Fuck them both. Are you also tucked into O’s scrotal folds? Because the only counter arguments allowed here are fuck firebaggers and let me get second on that Obot knob. Now fuck you too.

          • ranger11

            And another sophisticated precinct is heard from.

          • Awreally

            oh poppycock.

    • jaywillie

      Saying that the strategies of the Civil Rights movement have been adopted is not adopting the strategies of the Civil Rights movement. Dan Choi ripping up a placard does not qualify nor does perpetually griping on blogs. Look to Wisconsin, look to Ohio – that’s employing the strategies of the Civil Rights movement. The Civil Rights movement didn’t say, “We’re going to shame LBJ.” They organized, they mobilized, they boycotted; they adopted non-violent resistance; they exposed the immorality of institutionalized racism and those who kept it in place. They made it impossible for them to be ignored. They didn’t go around spiking presidential candidates with glitter.

      • ranger11

        These people are not like the civil rights movement. They’re more like Abbie Hoffman and the street theater crap of the 60’s. Man, they got a lot done. Nixon elected and a whole country turning rightward.

        • I remember, though a kid, those antics. Thanks to the purity left of the times, we got President Nixon. While things didn’t go all the way backward because of a Dem Congress, the real progress pretty much stopped there in Civil Rights. Would a President Humphrey have really continued the war, if he had become President? Would there even be ghettoes if Humphrey-Hawkins had become law, instead of Nixon’s “benign neglect”? Would pot still be illegal if Humphrey had been able to have a Shafer Commission of his own? That’s the difference right there.

          Similar antics for Carter got us Reagan and 30 years of wage stagnation and regressive antics. What would we have been able to do with an extra 4 years on alternative energy, the Middle East crisis, and so much more? Perhaps we would never have needed to deal with a Saddam Hussein if we had developed alternative energy. Perhaps there would be the federal agency version of Habitat for Humanity, or many of his peace initiatives. We would have still had to clean up the unions, but they would have still existed for many.

          But these people don’t really care about us minorities, do they? These people live in la-la land where nobody loses a job, or fails to get one because of their being a certain race or orientation.

          Call me an obot. I’m frankly thrilled at what he’s done, relieved at not having an Administration that’s out to disenfranchise me and mine for a change. And BTW, one grateful beneficiary of the changes in health care. So far, I’m entitled to a free physical every year, I now have a nurse to talk to on a regular basis on my health issues, and the drugs seem to be getting cheaper. When I went to my podiatrist for the first time, they already had my medical records, thanks to the electronic transfer, and my feet were taken care of with no copay. I wonder how many lives and how much time have been saved because the doctors already had the info on a patient.

          The purity trolls need to run for something other than their mouths, like City Council or even Neighborhood Council (if they exist in their area)

          • Dorothy Rissman

            Carol, beautifully stated. Thx.

    • NintendoWii10

      So how come these same folks aren’t out shaming Anthony Wiener for his failure to push for the rights of gays/lesbians?

      Oh that’s right, Anthony Wiener is one of their idols, and even though he showed his dick on a public forum, he can’t do ANY wrong, it’s the right wing DLC Republican corporatist Wall Street lackeys like Obama who are always wrong… *rolls eyes*

      How is shaming President Obama, who has done more than ANY President for gays/lesbians a good thing?

      “Justice delayed is justice denied”? Do you not understand that change takes time, that not everyone is going to be onboard with every major sweeping change? Did you not read the history of civil rights, and how it took time for folks to accept Dr, King’s ideas and fight alongside him?

      You are every bit as stupid as these UNprofessional left losers, no wonder you waste time defending them.

  • If you’re on Twitter, and are an Obama 2012 supporter, we just started a meme of sorts. Adding a 2012 image banner to our avatars. You can grab the banner here.!/nicole473/status/82180432535355392

  • four legsgood

    Agreed. And thank you for this – this unrelenting hostility to Obama is simply a gift to the GOP. What, they think a president Bachman or Romney will advance LGBT rights? Or women’s rights? I’ve had just about enough of the firebagger bullshit. In Texas the teabaggers are holding sway right now.

    C’mon firebaggers – take a good long look at what they’re up to. Besides killing education, gutting family planning, punishing the poor and doing their best to codify suppression of democratic voters, they’re also virulently anti-gay. THAT’s what trying to take down Obama because your precious fee-fees got hurt in 2008 is going to get the country.

    Grow the fuck up. I have no more reasonable arguments for you guys. I just want you to grow the fuck up.

    • jaywillie

      They’ll help elect Republicans by advocated for people not to vote and contribute. In the reality-based world, we call this “winning” in the Charlie Sheen sense of the word.

      • ranger11

        They’re on the road to nowhere. They say they’re pushing? Pushing for a GOP dominated country! This shite worked in the 60’s because it was the 60’s. We’re in a time period more akin to the 20’s now. Unrealistic pushing in my lifetime has just led to a more conservative country.

  • Corebela

    God I have never disliked Dan Choi more. FUCKING IDIOTS posing as activists.

  • mrbrink

    Action is cheap! Cheap!

    Couple things, real netroots is happening in Wisconsin, not on a Wayne’s World basement panel of fact-shredding character assassins, and Dan Choi has always struck me as a little emotionally-odd. Add uninformed, or willfully ignorant to the dossier.

    I wish I could say, “yeah, they’re making sense, good points, I’m glad they’re on my side,” but I can’t, and I won’t, because this is a loser’s errand and they’re steering people down a path I’m not willing to follow.

    It’s a path to marginalization, and “netroots” of all ideas, should understand what it takes to build something from the ground up, rather than lobbing uninformed cheap shots at the leader of the only party in America that gives a shit about their grievances.

    • JMAshby

      lol @ Wayne’s World Basement Panel

  • Maybe it’s because I’ve been involved with political campaigns since I was eight, which means Nixon vs. Kennedy in 1960, but I have this perspective that no matter what you think a candidate or president will do for you, it’s never going to meet the expectations you had for them. It’s like Christmas morning: the kids are always disappointed that they don’t get the pony and have to settle for the rocking horse.

    • NintendoWii10

      That’s the thing, these UNprofessional left losers are disappointed that they haven’t gotten their Obama Ponies they thought they would get one Obama became President. They actually believed he’d enact a socialist utopia and single-handedly defeat the Republican Party, and alongside the right wing that bought into the “Obama is a Messiah” crap. They’re disappointed of the harsh reality Obama has to deal with and express their frustrations through childish tantrums.

      • I don’t think that’s the problem. They were Edwards and Clinton supporters, and they are sore losers. They started kicking Obama on day 1 of his term.
        Read Hamsher’s screeds on Huffpost.

        • i_a_c

          Not all of them are Edwards and Clinton supporters.

          But the fact that some PUMA Clinton supporters suddenly turned into purity leftists is kind of funny to me. I mean, this is DLC Hillary Clinton we’re talking about. I hope none of them actually think that Clinton would have been some kind of progressive stalwart that rammed through the public option and nationalized the banks.

        • NintendoWii10

          That too. I also suspect a lot of them are the same folks who bought into Ralph Nader’s garbage from 2000: “There is no difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush.”

          Having posted on HuffnPuff for a while before eventually giving it up entirely, I’ve learned how these folks operate. They believe talking smack about President Obama on blogs is activism, that somehow their rants about starting a third party will somehow magically come to fruition through a revolution of some sort. They’re just as mentally deranged and defunct as Glenn Beck fans, and have the same flawed judgment of character.

        • four legsgood

          Exactly. Disclosure – I started out as an Edwards supporter, but Obama won me over. I’m a pragmatist, so I never thought I was going to get everything I wanted and I realized how hard getting our agenda passed was going to be.

          What I never imagined was this unrelenting assault from the left.

          • I was also an Edwards supporter, and then went to Obama. And, I am a pragmatist also. 🙂

  • imavettoo

    Did you really need to link to FDL without warning? Always makes me throw up in my mouth.

  • NintendoWii10

    Choi is a right wing Libertarian pretending to be “progressive” because he happens to be gay. He was up at CPAC cheering on Donald Chump, what “progressives” cheer on a millionaire who has had many of his own companies file for bankruptcy?

    Nutty Netroots isn’t about the real netroots. The REAL netroots have been hitting the ground and actually organizing. These nuts at Nutroots were just there to attack Obama for supposedly being some sort of right wing Republican DLC corporatist Wall Street lackey and defend Anthony Weiner for showing his dick over the Internet and champion him as a primary opponent against Obama.

    What dealing with these losers has shown me is that they aren’t the best judges of character. While they demonize the President, they are defending proven losers. Alan Grayson and Russ Feingold both lost their seats last year, Anthony Weiner just resigned over showing his dick on Twitter even AFTER demonizing the President for not being a “values” fellow, and Lt. Choi is an attention seeker, or as President Obama rightfully called him and his kind, “carnival barkers.”

    Did any of these UNprofessional left liberal losers actually lobby Congressmen to support DADT repeal? Hell no, heck they even demonized Joe Lieberman who has been socially liberal, just because he voted against a public option for healthcare, but I’d like to see how DADT repeal would have passed without Joe’s vote. These losers don’t understand how to get their message across, which is why Fox and the right have an easy time mocking and making fun of them. Although I disagree with Fox and right wing politics, I join their pleasure of making fun of pathetic scum like Choi who essentially should just be Republicans. The UNprofessional left message isn’t any different than the Republicans, so why not just join the Republican Party and assist them in helping President Obama and the Democrats fail? It would save a lot of time and effort of their continued rants about “starting a third party,” since the Republican Party has already established that they want President Obama and the Democrats to fail.

    There are legit criticisms of President Obama, but these nutty leftwing liberals don’t offer legit criticisms. They only offer the same childish tantrums that many of us had when we were children and we didn’t get that new popular toy or gadget that we saw on teevee or at the store. Many of us were soundly whipped, sent into timeout, or just ignored. Although we can’t exactly “soundly whip” these leftwing losers, we can send them into timeout by just ignoring their tantrums.

    • i_a_c

      I saw your post about Choi and Trump on TPV. I hadn’t heard about that. Can you provide a link?

      • NintendoWii10

        Well I can’t exactly find him “cheering on Trump” because I read that from other folks on TPV and ObamaDiary, but I did find this where Choi talks about why he went to CPAC:

        • i_a_c

          I was able to find this quote from Choi from CPAC:

          “I think that the gay community can learn something from Donald Trump and GOProud and all of the different avenues that we’re going in,” former Lt. Dan Choi, who’d been discharged under the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell policy,” told The Ticket. “I think that’s what Donald Trump represents for a lot of people– he’s not going to convince everybody to agree with him… and the gay movement cannot expect every gay or transgendered person to fall in line.”

          Meh, doesn’t sound a whole lot like “cheering on” Trump to me, but it does sound like the Hamsher alliance with Grover Norquist.

  • muselet

    I think these folks are jealous. They see how much attention the fringe Right gets from the Republican Party and are butthurt that the Democratic Party doesn’t make them the center of its universe. Which would be fine, except the fringe Right poured decades of time, effort and money into capturing the Republican Party, while the Firebaggers want to skip over all that dull stuff and go directly to the controlling-influence bit.

    It doesn’t work like that, kids.


    • “while the Firebaggers want to skip over all that dull stuff and go directly to the controlling-influence bit.

      It doesn’t work like that, kids.”

      But isn’t this something that could be said of the far-right 35+years ago?

      I would argue that there is a kind of bait-and-switch that went on from campaign to governing; it was a sort of cynical ploy to have HOPE and CHANGE, very aspirational, inspiring words upon which people cold project their own… you know, *hopes* for big changes. The republican-right, in chipping away at abortions never revolted from their standard bearers who didn’t win outright banning of abortions because at all times, the standard-bearers talked the talk.

      I want the president to be more brave in defense of gay issues, too, and I’m not even gay. I can only think that those for whom this issue is entirely personal may indeed take it personally that their personhood is qualified with asterixes and not vigorously, rhetorically defended by one side, when the other side is vigorously rhetorically attacking.

      During civil rights struggles, there were big, geopolitical things and concerns going on as well, that made it inconvenient to give focus or attention or to spend political capital on. But we elected Obama because we wanted someone who could walk and chew gum at the same time.

      I think, too, that this is ultimately the wages of so much compromise-at-the-beginning as strategy. If Obama was seen as a fierce advocate of ANY position, even if those fights were eventually winnowed down to incremental gains, there wouldn’t be this base disillusionment.

      All this said, I was an Obama volunteer last time around; I registered voters, I gave donations, I phonebanked. I’m gonna do it all again next time around, too.

      But I’d be lying to tell you I’m not disappointed in Obama’s approach and strategy and certainly how and who he chose to trust, banking and finance-wise.

      I said at the time of the not-enough-stimulus, “we just may have lost 2012,” and I fear that I may still be right. That was and is the biggest defeat of this administration, and they began the fight by hobbling themselves.

      • i_a_c

        I think, too, that this is ultimately the wages of so much compromise-at-the-beginning as strategy. If Obama was seen as a fierce advocate of ANY position, even if those fights were eventually winnowed down to incremental gains, there wouldn’t be this base disillusionment.

        That’s the finest analysis of this debate that I’ve ever seen from someone who I respectfully disagree with. Kudos.

        I’ve frequently criticized those who call for the president to fight harder, arguing that with the current state of Congress, it’s difficult for me to believe that there would be any improvement to the legislation outside of something very incremental. And I’m glad that we agree on this point. I think there’s something to be said that some progressives wanted the president to give more lip service to their pet issues, to be a progressive firebrand on the stump. I think it may have made some progressives feel better, but I don’t think that would have made one bit of difference policy-wise.

        The difference, for me, is that I don’t give a shit about what politicians say, because they all lie, and they all break promises. I look at the results, and with a few exceptions, I’m very pleased.

        In the case of the stimulus, the president needed the votes of Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, and (then-Republican) Arlen Specter to get the 60 votes needed to pass. And it passed with exactly 60 votes. I am not sure how much bigger the stimulus could possibly get without losing that 60th vote. Maybe this was a political calculation by the Republicans… who knows.

        Anyway, that’s my $0.01924.

      • muselet

        But isn’t this something that could be said of the far-right 35+years ago?

        No. The people I referred to as the fringe Right did grunt-work for the Republicans long before they had influence within the party. They knocked on doors, participated in GOTV efforts, ran candidates for local and state offices (and got clobbered, at least in the beginning), ran candidates for intra-party positions, gave money until it hurt, ran fundraising activities—in short, they did the hard graft of party-building. They did all those things even when the Party establishment ignored them.

        Oh, and they voted. In droves. In every single election that came along.

        After working in the trenches for five decades (let me repeat that: FIVE DECADES), the fringe Right is now firmly in control of the Republican Party.

        On the other hand, the Firebaggers decided that the Democratic Party needed to be punished for not instantly accomplishing exactly what they demanded and stayed home on Election Day 2010. Look what that got them, and the rest of us: a Republican-controlled House, a razor-thin Democratic majority in the Senate, Republican majorities in more state legislatures, and more Republican governors. Good work, children. The Republicans thank you for your diligent efforts.

        Want to push the Democratic Party to the Left? Good on you. The formula for success is simple: copy what the fringe Right did and expect to spend decades doing it. Throwing temper tantrums because your causes aren’t being addressed quickly enough—or because elected officials aren’t saying the magic words—simply won’t work.

        Sorry to go on like that, but you asked.


  • Choi also ripped up a pamphlet and threw it at a volunteer who disagreed with him. Nice.

    Hamsher calls dissenters “foaming obots”. Again.!/janehamsher/status/82086830337572864

    Personally, I see the Firebaggers as foaming at the mouth. And they’ve been doing it since at least early 2009. Sore losers.

    • i_a_c

      Yep, that’s the M.O. of Hamsher, Greenwald, et al. Anyone who dares support the president is a “foaming obot.” Because it’s easier to dismiss 90% of liberals who approve of the president with a fact-free appeal to emotion than to actually confront reality.

    • NintendoWii10

      And the firebaggers are blaming the resignation of Anthony Wiener on Obama, Debbie Wasserman Shultz, Nancy Pelosi, and the Democratic Party leadership.

      Sure, it wasn’t Anthony Wiener’s fault that he tweeted a picture of his penis on Twitter, a PUBLIC INTERNET forum, it’s all the fault of those right wing Republican DLC corporatist Wall Street lackeys in the Democratic Party and we have to primary them all… *rolls eyes*

      These firebagging moonbats aren’t exactly the best judges of character. President Obama has been nothing but humble and respectful, yet they continuously throw him under the bus despite all of the meaningful accomplishments that only came to fruition when he became President. They continue defending deranged losers like Alan Grayson, Russ Feingold, Dennis Kucinich, Anthony Wiener… heck they’re even defending Ron/Rand Paul, who aren’t even Democrats and have both praised slavery and have shown their racist colors.

      Just like Mitt Romney, these firebagging losers don’t know exactly what they stand for, which is why I can see why Fox and the right wing continue to have a field day with them. They suck at messaging, organizing, and have nothing to offer but childish tantrums.

    • four legsgood

      Jane Hamsher can simply kiss my fat ass. She’s offered nothing constructive, ever.

      I’ll take being an “obot” over being a foaming, incoherent “hillary-deadendersoreloser” anyday. Feh, a pox on the whole firebagger crowd.

  • i_a_c

    Out of all the purity left’s bitching and moaning, gay rights issues makes the least sense out of all of it. This president is the first to take on this issue in a meaningful way. DADT is on its way out, and there’s that nice laundry list of accomplishments Bob posted. But nope, Obama sucks, he’s no better than Romney.

    • AA

      Romney believes that being gay is a choice. If Choi supports him fine. Stop pretending he has anything at all to do with progressive issues.

      • NintendoWii10

        Actually Romney doesn’t know what he believes, seeing as he flip flops every single day, but that’s a whole other issue =)

      • i_a_c

        I dunno if he supports Romney, but on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show last night, he called the choice between Obama and the Republican nominee a difficult one.

        If you claim to be a progressive, it should be abundantly obvious that, with few exceptions, ANY Democrat is leaps and bounds better than ANY Republican.

    • Amen.

  • dildenusa

    It seems that the wise ass tea bag partiers aren’t the only one’s who regurgitate the pap they hear on mindless talk radio or GOD forbid, Net Roots Nation and MSNBC.

    I’ve started reading Al Gore’s book, The Assault on Reason. He lays out all the sad facts about the republican media machine and the fearmongering used to sway public opinion. It’s sad to see progressives using the same fearmongering tactics that the republican media machine has been using for the past 40 years.

    Marshall McLuhan said in The Medium is The Message that mass media is an extension of our sensory experience. It seems to me that the false messiahs of talk radio, in particular, Rush Limbaugh, and TV false messiahs like Glen Beck, try to capture our sensory experience and dull our senses to suffering not only of others but to ourselves as well. The next step is when we reject our spiritual selves and embrace false prophets and messiahs. This fearmongering by Net Roots is troubling. When independent voters see this they are horrified. Most independents at the political center will vote left of center if they perceive that they have a voice. This drumbeat that President Obama neglected the gay and lesbian community is nothing but hypocrisy and will drive independents voters to the right.

    • TrumpDog

      It’s sad to see progressives using the same fearmongering tactics that the republican media machine has been using for the past 40 years.

      Yes but at least Republicans have the sense to use their tactics against Dems/liberals. The Nutroots are dumb enough to do the dirty work AGAINST our side.

      I can’t believe I once aligned myself with a lot these people. They are not progressives and they are certainly not the president’s base. I wish the “liberal” media would get the memo.

  • I respectfully disagree. I can understand how trying to split the difference and paying lip service to “not being for the redefinition of marriage” when he clearly doesn’t REALLY feel that way, alone in a room with the truth, is enough to get gay people disenchanted with the president.

    You can’t yell at them to feel differently.

    When people are asking for basic rights and you give them half-way measures to them, yes, you’ve done more for them than those who would take them away.

    Someone who feeds a captive group gruel and doesn’t beat them is also much better than the guy who starved and beat them. But you can’t get mad when the group doesn’t love and celebrate the gruel-giver, when what they’ve been asking for all along is an honest meal.

    Kennedy had a problem with the racial situation in the same measure. Being half-way right is better than being absolutely wrong. But it still is half-way wrong.

    • Also, not for nothing, but I think Choi has earned the right to speak his mind on the subject.

      He’s done more than “look posh on TV,” you know? I can perfectly understand why someone like him could be “radicalized” on the subject.

      • NintendoWii10

        Choi lost any credibility he had when he showed up at CPAC and cheered up Donald Chump with his right wing Libertarian friends.

        While he does speak his mind, we do have a right to call him out on his bullshit. He says that Obama is the worst POTUS for gay/lesbian rights, where were his complaints during the W. Bush administration? Where were his complaints during the Clinton administration, when DADT was signed into law?

        Obama has done more for gay/lesbian rights than ANY President, even more than the “progressive” hero FDR. Choi doesn’t speak for anyone but himself. He is no different than Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh, they ALL want Obama to fail in some form or fashion to feed their egos.

      • Large volumes of no. Did you not READ what Obama’s been doing? You call that gruel? FFS, Choi’s been wanting the magic wand on DADT. The screaming for executive orders that can be reversed and stink of Bush is nothing short of pathetic. Choi may have the right to speak his mind, but the reality-based community has the responsibility to tell him when he’s full of it. As well as people like you.

      • jaywillie

        No one is saying he doesn’t have to the right to speak his mind. But sometimes a person needs to have a level of self-awareness that tells him/her that the actions he/she engages in are counter-productive. No activist can be successful without that temperament. And continually engaging in actions that only draw attention to one’s self at the expense of the broader movement is clearly an indication that Choi, along with many others, lack such a temperament (ie, chaining yourself to the WH fence doesn’t really accomplish anything or ripping up a placard during a panel discussion). Again, as I mentioned in another comment, where’s he at when it comes to Minnesota or NY? He might not have agreed with the Obama supporter’s position on gay marriage, but at least that Obama supporter was actively involved in fighting conservative efforts to incorporate inequality into his state’s constitution. Sitting on a dais bitching about what someone hasn’t done for you isn’t a substitute for activism; engaging in sensationalist acts isn’t activism that leads to anything more than becoming a blip on the radar of our sensationalism-hungry media.

        How long have African-Americans been fighting for their rights in this country? 400 years? Changing the world takes time, commitment, and perseverance. It also means you recognize what has been accomplished as a stepping stone to future progress; you don’t just dismiss it as nothing as Choi does. And you sure as hell don’t tell be to disengage by not voting or not contributing to those who have advanced the cause. That is the surest way to guarantee the status quo or future regressive action by those who hate you.

        • Dorothy Rissman

          Jaywillie, I worked my behind off in the early 70s for the equal rights for women amendment. It could not be ratified. I was demoralized and realized that women were perceived as being worth less than men. Things have changed, but we women know there are still differences in the way we are perceived and treated.

          I am in no way belittling these incredibly important issues, but damn, it is hard to deliver real change. It is slow and drives us crazy, but we just have to keep working on equal rights for all groups and all people.

    • Alex0001

      I’m not really sure what you mean by half way. What exactly is half way about repealing DADT and disregarding DOMA , for starters? Do you not think that list of items in the post is significant?

      • The bottom line is, it seems, that the president’s still official, but “winking” stance is that “marriage is between a man and a woman, but can’t we all agree civil unions are half-way better? And I may be “evolving,” but I’ve got other stuff on my plate, too.”

        Which is pretty shitty. Either gays should be allowed to to marry or they shouldn’t. It is a really easy question to answer.

        You can’t say he’s been a rhetorical, on-record “fierce advocate.” He’s in a tough spot, but presidents are always in tough spots.

        I come at it this way: I grew up the only jew in a rural town and got into a lot of fights because of it.

        A LOT. I went through three pairs of glasses in a year once. Then I stopped wearing glasses except when I totally needed to, because I was getting in too much trouble at home for having broken glasses.

        You get to know who your friends are and who your half-way friends are. And it is sometimes emotionally more distressing to have half-way friends who won’t stand up for you because it isn’t their fight, even if they are temperamentally inclined to agree with you.

        Obviously, dispassionately, on paper, it is better to have half-way friends than enemies, but I can see their perspective. And politically, so should the White House. This is, if you’ll pardon the pun, low hanging fruit to get on your side.

        • jaywillie

          He never ran on supporting marriage equality. To establish this now as the metric he should be judged by, while simultaneously dismissing everything he has accomplished, is nonsense.

          And Choi & Aravosis are by no means representative of how the GLBT community feels (why, just a few years ago Aravosis advocated throwing transgendered individuals under the bus because they were icky and including them might cost gays a political victory; he argued for pragmatism, progressive in increments). Major GLBT groups are supporting the President’s re-election. Honeslty, the blogosphere needs to exit the isolation chamber from time to time and get in touch with real people.

          And, yes, the President does have alot on his plate. Thankfully, the professionally disgruntled are as impatient and counterproductive when it comes to addressing those issues as well.

        • Alex0001

          Ok… didn’t really answer the question at all. So what my understanding of your post is basically you don’t support him because his vocal statements and opinions aren’t strong enough to go along with the actually strong policy changes that he’s implementing. So he’s worked towards making all these changes listed but since he hasn’t been vocally loud enough doing it, it doesn’t count and he needs to be shunned for it. I get it now.

          • Guy. This is not helpful; the internet one-upsmanship. “Sooo… you didn’t understand..”

            Seriously. I get both sides of the argument. I’m an ardent Obama supporter. But you’re being either willfully blind or simply contrary if you can honestly say that the image the president put forth in the campaign matches with how he’s governed or advocated.

            I get that compromise is necessary at key points and junctures, but I have been continually disappointed and disheartened by how he walks in asking for half of what he wants and ends up getting 1/3 and planting a victory flag in it while losing the overall media messaging war.

            The republicans understand this and they game the system and the president. It is sad to see.

            Again, I can understand where gay activists are upset with not enough progress or tepid support, the same way I could understand that black activists were upset in the 60s with not enough progress.

            This is a question of validating a person’s personhood. You can’t compromise on that.

            Again, I think the Obama team has done a terrible job of encouraging, speaking to, or acknowledging the active base that did so much in the campaign, in pursuit of a middle that doesn’t quite exist the way they think it does.

            Clinton was never more right than when he said “People will choose strong and wrong over weak and right.”

            So yeah, *being vocal* about your stances, accomplishments and philosophy is dreadfully important. We lost in 201o because democrats *ran away* from legislative accomplishment, because it had been a)ripped to being ineffective by a strategy of negotiating using good faith tactics upfront with an opposition negotiating in bad faith and b)not fiercely advocated for by the president. That’s a bully pulpit and he’s an amazing orator. He should use it.

            History called on him to be great and he has answered thus far with being passable. Sure, I’ll take passable ANY day over “failing,” but I had higher hopes going in in 2008.

            It isn’t “ponies and unicorns;” a public option IS a compromise position and was popular. It was sold away for a claimable “win” that has been a loss, politically, thus far.

            The fact that this Justice Dept. hasn’t put one Wall Street banker in jail is heartbreaking. The fact that Geithner and Summers are the go-to voices, while Krugman is painted as an opposition nag is heartbreaking. And, potentially the downfall of the presidency. I hope not. But that isn’t the HOPE I had signed up for, no.

          • ranger11

            Bill Clinton really pushed the progressive agenda.

          • Is this a “gotcha?” I don’t get it. I wasn’t saying YAY CLINTON! BOO, OBAMA!

            I was referencing a specific quote of Clinton’s that I wished he’d have followed more often than not.

            You guys are so busy, People’s Front of Judea style hating the Judean People’s Front that you don’t see there’s a larger picture beyond the internecine rivalry.

            I’m not a “Firebagger” or an “Obamabot.” I wish the President was as masterful in handling the politics of the job as he was handling the politics of the campaign.

            His administration, politically, has been largely inept, managing to lose support for actual *accomplishments.*

            The best criticism I’ve heard of the President is that he sometimes thinks (mistakenly) he’s the head of the Fed, where he can’t come out strongly about anything because his every sentence could affect markets, etc.

            To NOT see that the “post-partisan” strategy isn’t working because the other side wouldn’t let it work– that they’d REALLY rather have the village burn than for *him* to save the village, should have resulted in a series of changes to strategy and tactics.

            So far, they haven’t. And the soft-support of the gay issues is emblematic of this; you can’t be half-pregnant. If it is a moral, human rights issue, people will respond more to a strong advocate than a weak one.

            The anti-gays are going to assume he’s full-pro-gay ANYWAY, the only thing he’s bought with the half-steps is a loss of passion from the gay community and its supporters. It is just bad game-of-RISK playing.

            I want him to succeed and be a great president. I still have hope (HOPE!) that he could be. But so far, he’s only been OK, and the times are calling for greatness.

          • ranger11

            Maybe it’s just me but I spent eight years being miserable while Clinton was president and I resolved not to go through that again. There is a lot to criticize but in my opinion he’s the best we can do right now. I am on disability and Medicaid right now and the Right scares the crap out of me. The progressive guns should be trained solely at the Republicans. I can’t believe that twelve years later we’re at another Nader moment. Maybe in the year 2050 we will have finally arrived at that great progressive utopia but it’s not going to happen in my lifetime. I’m getting too old and poor for this shit. I read his book and knew what he was. No surprises here. You can’t force a leopard to change their spots.

  • Indeed.

  • Bob, please contact O’Donnell and ask him to present the opposing viewpoint!!

    Adding….the #firebaggers hashtag is VERY active today.!/search/%23firebaggers

  • We really need to do something about them.

    They cost us the House in 10. They could cost us what’s left of our democracy in 2012 if we don’t fight back hard.

  • jaywillie

    We’re dealing with a bunch of people who would rather waste time and energy defending some loser Congressmen who sexted pictures of his penis than do the hard work of organizing and mobilizing for progress. Simply contrast their actions with what real progressives have done on the ground in Wisconsin and Ohio in opposition to Walker and Kasich. That’s how you get it done – you hit the pavement, you knock on doors, you make calls, you cycle petitions, you work your ass off. If Hamsher, Aravosis, Choi, et al. were leading those movements, there efforts would amount to looking posh and sitting on a panel bitching about why the President hasn’t done anything to stop Walker or Kasich.

    As far as Choi goes, you have to wonder why he isn’t in Minnesota helping that Obama volunteer fight conservative efforts to institutionalize social inequality in that state’s constitution or in NY to secure the passage of marriage equality legislation. He needs to be asked what chaining himself to a fence actually accomplished, other than feeding his own deranged ego, or what the hell traveling to Moscow does to secure what he claims to want in this country. We should probably just be thankful that he’s kept his dumb ass as away from those states.

  • I honestly can’t take Netroots Nation seriously to begin with. It just seems like a bunch of bloggers fighting over who is going to be the mouthpiece for the democratic agenda, the go-to blogs for all our “correct” info on what the administration is doing.

  • Alice Inthewater

    I want Choi to point out one GOP front runner that does not belong to a “pray the gay away” church.

    • ae

      are you a fan of Grey’s Anatomy by any chance?

      if yes;THIS episode of Callie and Papa Torres was one of THE best episode of Grey’s Anatomy ever!

  • caribbeanobserver

    Hey Bobby, stop’ hoping that lawrence does whatever’, and be pro-active and send him your little missive for corrective clean-up on his show. Then no-one can gripe about dems messaging, once you do your part. Yes, gripe, but also do one pro-active task to shut down the lie!

  • Is Aravosis still “boycotting” the President for completely abandoning his promise to end “don’t ask, don’t tell”?

  • The_Dork_Knight

    Do you have a link to this panel?

  • There are legitimate criticisms to be made but the Firebaggers remind me of liberals who insisted on voting for Ralph Nader in ’00 and ’04 in order to make some kind of statement. Firebaggers: the reality is if you go out of your way to “shame” President Obama during the ’12 campaign you may sway liberals to stay home or some independents to vote (R). We saw what kind of statement the staying home thing made in ’10. We can criticize, no worries there, but we need to work to get this president reelected since the alternative is…Romney? Bachmann? Pawlenty? Palin?

    Pleease, people…get a grip.

    • jaywillie

      There is currently a post up at FDL by some clown called scarecrow that says a President Romney would be no different than President Obama, stating: “I defy any Obama spokesperson to point out any meaningful difference between what Obama has done and what a President Romney would have done….a moral chameleon like Mitt Romney, indistinguishable from Obama…”

      The list Bob links to is obviously a stark difference between what a President Romney would do and what President Obama has done. But, see, the Firebaggers play this game whereby you can’t state any of the accomplishments of the Obama Administration because that’s using facts to make a cogent argument, which eviscerates their hyperbolic, hysterical, overly emotional screeching. They are not serious people – they are the emotional and intellectual equivalent of snot-nosed brats.

  • molinelobo

    really Dan, do you want him to suck your dick too? He’s done more than any other politician period. If the republicans come back in, they will put you in jail for obsenmity. Get your head on man, critisize but act in good faith as our president does.